Why would God send someone to hell over suicide?

[TheLonelySquire]

^Not arguing that at all, JP, simply refuting TLS's statement that if something doesn't hurt people, he's fine with it. Morality of illegal immigration can wait for another thread, so as not to hijack this one...

Your assertion that criminals don't hurt people is very telling. Would you care to start another thread and I can post stories about people that they have murdered or otherwise killed? I'll be more than happy to accomodate you.

 

[Scout101]

And I'd be willing to wager that under the same conditions (open and ready to accept God), had you been born in another culture, you'd have accepted THAT god instead of this one. People go off in different directions occasionally, but in a large majority of cases, if you accept a religion, it's likely to be the one that's actually practiced in your area. Not a lot of Chinese Jews running around, for example.

So, back to the question I asked: Is God stacking the deck AGAINST people born outside of a Christian culture? Is he essentially KNOWINGLY setting it up so these people basically go to Hell by default?

 

[Scout101]

Your assertion that criminals don't hurt people is very telling. Would you care to start another thread and I can post stories about people that they have murdered or otherwise killed? I'll be more than happy to accomodate you.

"Criminals don't hurt people"? that's an interesting strawman, but not what I said. Yes, criminals sometimes hurt people, and by definition Illegal aliens are criminals, but not all illegal aliens hurt people. That's where you jumped the rail. I simply used that as an example because I don't believe any illegal aliens have hurt you, and yet you advocate for VERY strong positions against them, which countered what you said about homosexuals above.

And no, random stories about illegal aliens that have committed violence won't help make your argument. Like any group, assorted stories don't represent the whole. If I show a few links to Christians that go on shooting sprees in churches, or muslims that blow up buildings, doesn't mean that all of them are the same. It's an easy to way lump them together in order to make it easier to hate a group you don't understand (or want to).

But let's not derail this further, back to Hell, and its place in Dogma...

 

[TheLonelySquire]

Your assertion that criminals don't hurt people is very telling. Would you care to start another thread and I can post stories about people that they have murdered or otherwise killed? I'll be more than happy to accomodate you.

"Criminals don't hurt people"? that's an interesting strawman, but not what I said. Yes, criminals sometimes hurt people, and by definition Illegal aliens are criminals, but not all illegal aliens hurt people. That's where you jumped the rail. I simply used that as an example because I don't believe any illegal aliens have hurt you, and yet you advocate for VERY strong positions against them, which countered what you said about homosexuals above.

And no, random stories about illegal aliens that have committed violence won't help make your argument. Like any group, assorted stories don't represent the whole. If I show a few links to Christians that go on shooting sprees in churches, or muslims that blow up buildings, doesn't mean that all of them are the same. It's an easy to way lump them together in order to make it easier to hate a group you don't understand (or want to).

But let's not derail this further, back to Hell, and its place in Dogma...

I like how you don't want ME to paint with a broad brush, but when it suited your purposes a post earlier you in fact did it yourself. Nice!

Now about those Special Olympians... Going to consider changing that insulting signature or no?

 

[Amaris]

TLS, according to your faith, those who do not accept Jesus Christ will not go to heaven and will instead be consigned to eternal torment. You also hold the position that they choose for themselves, and that God lets them have that free will. Therefore, once more;

A million gods, a million choices,
one is right and none are talking.

Do you think that is fair?

J.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

plus I don't think that TLS has given my question a real answer:

why is God's vanity more important and valued to him than his sense of empathy?

 

[John Picard]

^Not arguing that at all, JP, simply refuting TLS's statement that if something doesn't hurt people, he's fine with it. Morality of illegal immigration can wait for another thread, so as not to hijack this one...

I see. My mistake.

 

[I'm Kirk]

As far as Josephus goes, just for the sake of argument, could it be that the people who do not believe in Jesus are the ones who come out and say it could be possible that someone interjected the writings about Jesus into his writings? Just like the history of the U.S. being rewritten to omit the references to God in our country's documents? Nothing is ever said or taught anymore to our students about the Mayflower Compact.

 

[I'm Kirk]

Don't give us the OT/ NTG crap, seriously. It was the same god, and the ten commandments are in the old testament anyway, and people still like those. Jesus also added that not a tittle of the old law would be changed.

See, people do it all the time, they pick and choose what they like out of that book.

Oh, don't say that. They get very, very testy when it's pointed out that they "pick and choose" what they believe/practice. When they deny it, then I ask when/where the next public stoning will take place for someone who has been working on the Sabbath, worn clothing of mixed thread, etc. I also like to ask where their leaders or men of power keep their harem of concubines.

Which is Old Testament and under the law teaching..we are no longer under the "law" of keeping rules to get to Heaven but we are now under the age of "grace".

 

[John Picard]

Don't give us the OT/ NTG crap, seriously. It was the same god, and the ten commandments are in the old testament anyway, and people still like those. Jesus also added that not a tittle of the old law would be changed.

See, people do it all the time, they pick and choose what they like out of that book.

Oh, don't say that. They get very, very testy when it's pointed out that they "pick and choose" what they believe/practice. When they deny it, then I ask when/where the next public stoning will take place for someone who has been working on the Sabbath, worn clothing of mixed thread, etc. I also like to ask where their leaders or men of power keep their harem of concubines.

Which is Old Testament and under the law teaching..we are no longer under the "law" of keeping rules to get to Heaven but we are now under the age of "grace".

Then why always referencing the OT? Why always pointing to Deuteronomy, Leviticus, etc? Again, it's pick and choose.

As far as Josephus goes, just for the sake of argument, could it be that the people who do not believe in Jesus are the ones who come out and say it could be possible that someone interjected the writings about Jesus into his writings? Just like the history of the U.S. being rewritten to omit the references to God in our country's documents? Nothing is ever said or taught anymore to our students about the Mayflower Compact.

Care to give us some examples?

 

[Amaris]

As far as Josephus goes, just for the sake of argument, could it be that the people who do not believe in Jesus are the ones who come out and say it could be possible that someone interjected the writings about Jesus into his writings? Just like the history of the U.S. being rewritten to omit the references to God in our country's documents? Nothing is ever said or taught anymore to our students about the Mayflower Compact.

It is generally considered that Josephus writings about Jesus were forged. I've already posted the information. If you're not going to read it, don't bother posting about Josephus' writings not being forged. The link I gave earlier (and for sake of expediencey will give again) explains it in good detail:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

Which is Old Testament and under the law teaching..we are no longer under the "law" of keeping rules to get to Heaven but we are now under the age of "grace".

Matthew 5:18-19, “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

II Timothy 3:16-17, "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."


J.

 

[FlyingLemons]

Don't give us the OT/ NTG crap, seriously. It was the same god, and the ten commandments are in the old testament anyway, and people still like those.

Most of the "Old Testament" laws are meant to be followed by Jews anyway. "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me" refers to what God is saying to the people of Israel rather than the whole of mankind. That's kind of why Jews don't proselytize as we're happy for other people to believe whatever the hell they want. I think your beef is with Christianity mainly, anyway.

As far as Josephus goes, just for the sake of argument, could it be that the people who do not believe in Jesus are the ones who come out and say it could be possible that someone interjected the writings about Jesus into his writings? Just like the history of the U.S. being rewritten to omit the references to God in our country's documents? Nothing is ever said or taught anymore to our students about the Mayflower Compact.

It's pretty much accepted nowadays that the references to Jesus in The Antiquities of the Jews are forgeries. There are myriad articles on the topic, but the key is that Jesus is pretty much of zero interest to religious Jews. He just isn't a part of the landscape. I suppose it's in the interest of early Christians to have some Jews saying nice things about Jesus, but basically if Jospehus was a loyal Jew, then whatever writings about Jesus being Christ are about as kosher as a ham and cheese sandwich.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

If the OT falls under the ol' Jewish law type thing, here are my questions:

Doesn't it seem like God is somehow subject to Jewish Law?

Why are the ten commandments so important today?

I think the important "commandments" (regarding sttealing, murdering, adultery, etc could be easily derived in a secular manner by those seeking to live in a cooperative society.)

 

[TheLonelySquire]

TLS, according to your faith, those who do not accept Jesus Christ will not go to heaven and will instead be consigned to eternal torment. You also hold the position that they choose for themselves, and that God lets them have that free will. Therefore, once more;

A million gods, a million choices,
one is right and none are talking.

Do you think that is fair?

J.

Yes. Because Christ IS talking to those that are willing to listen. I hear Him everyday.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

plus I don't think that TLS has given my question a real answer:

why is God's vanity more important and valued to him than his sense of empathy?

My answer is that God is not vain. He's simply not on our level as much as some would want Him to be. He is indeed far. far above us.

 

[John Picard]

TLS, according to your faith, those who do not accept Jesus Christ will not go to heaven and will instead be consigned to eternal torment. You also hold the position that they choose for themselves, and that God lets them have that free will. Therefore, once more;

A million gods, a million choices,
one is right and none are talking.

Do you think that is fair?

J.

Yes. Because Christ IS talking to those that are willing to listen. I hear Him everyday.

So -- What's he saying?

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

If what J is saying is correct, TLS, that, accrding to your theology, those who follow Jesus will go to heaven, and those who don't will face eternal torment (or, at minimum, be excluded from hevaen) is not a choice, it's an ultimatum. You're either with us, or you will burn. It's language not unlike what a fascist would use. It is entirely unjust and immoral, and you can't spin it to say it is moral. It is quite relief to know that not a word of it is remotely true.

 

[Amaris]

Yes. Because Christ IS talking to those that are willing to listen. I hear Him everyday.

In other words, you have to believe Jesus Christ is God before you can be told that Jesus Christ is God, because I'll tell you, it's very easy to hear voices and think they're God. Which means your very statement is completely subjective, because the only one who can know is you, and even then, you only know because that voice told you it's Jesus Christ.

This also means 5+ billion people will die and burn in eternal hellfire.

Sounds like God has no idea what he's doing.

J.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

If what J is saying is correct, TLS, that, accrding to your theology, those who follow Jesus will go to heaven, and those who don't will face eternal torment (or, at minimum, be excluded from hevaen) is not a choice, it's an ultimatum. You're either with us, or you will burn. It's language not unlike what a fascist would use. It is entirely unjust and immoral, and you can't spin it to say it is moral. It is quite relief to know that not a word of it is remotely true.

Well then just feel free not to believe and you'll have nothing to worry about. We can agree to disagree.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

Yes. Because Christ IS talking to those that are willing to listen. I hear Him everyday.

In other words, you have to believe Jesus Christ is God before you can be told that Jesus Christ is God, because I'll tell you, it's very easy to hear voices and think they're God. Which means your very statement is completely subjective, because the only one who can know is you, and even then, you only know because that voice told you it's Jesus Christ.

This also means 5+ billion people will die and burn in eternal hellfire.

Sounds like God has no idea what he's doing.

J.

When you change your mind again in a couple of months I wonder how you'll spin it then? How did you deal with it the last time you lost your faith and then regained it? Because you seemed pretty sure of yourself.