In the post-Nemesis novels, the Suliban are Federation members and the Xindi are nomads roaming the galaxy.
Why Were The Borg Unknown Prior To TNG?
- Thread starter Harbinger
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What bothered me about that episode was that they didn't do anything for the viewer, like somehow having the Ferengi "disguised", in effect, via hooded outfits or something. That way, the viewer can say, "Hey, they're Ferengi!", meanwhile the crew has nothing to go on as far as a description. How hard could that have been to do?
What use would a description be? Until they meet this species again and establish visual contact (and get the name) its just another unnamed alien. The Ferengi have no reason to hide their appearance from the crew.
What bothered me about that episode was that they didn't do anything for the viewer, like somehow having the Ferengi "disguised", in effect, via hooded outfits or something. That way, the viewer can say, "Hey, they're Ferengi!", meanwhile the crew has nothing to go on as far as a description. How hard could that have been to do?
Even if there was no video or still images, you would think that someone aboard the Enterprise who interacted with the Ferengi could have produced a sketch.
It just accrued to me, after The Last Outpost where Riker and the away team saw the Ferengi, did Starfleet then put two and two together and realize that the species that boarded the Enterprise in the 22nd century were the Ferengi?
^(oo)^
It just accrued to me, after The Last Outpost where Riker and the away team saw the Ferengi, did Starfleet then put two and two together and realize that the species that boarded the Enterprise in the 22nd century were the Ferengi?
^(oo)^
Which is the point I've been making for over a decade. Having a picture of the alien only gives you a description. Having a name only gives you that. Until the alien using that name shows his face you've no idea that the "butthead" aliens encountered in the 22nd Century and the aliens who've been calling themselves the "Ferengi", since who know when, are the same species.
So? They may have a ton of pictures of the buttheads. Doesn't mean they will know they're called "Ferengi". Until they meet someone, show them the picture and that person says "Oh yeah, those guys are the Ferengi." they'll remain unnamed in Starfleet's database.
Obviously they had poor record keeping in those days. I mean, historical records recorded that Trip died! 
Yeah, I remember before that Borg episode aired, people were worried about continuity and Berman said "Don't worry, this episode CREATES continuity!" Then after the episode, turned out, no, it just didn't make any sense. If the Borg in the 22nd century indeed sent the signal that caused the 24th century Borg to rush to Earth, you'd think somebody at Starfleet would have noted, huh, we're probably going to be attacked by robot zombies in about 200 years. Hey, let's prepare for it and make at least captain and above aware! There's no explaining the implications of that episode, it was just very, very poor writing.
Even that 'Phlox and only Phlox can survive the cure' thing was a lame transparent contrivance. Not only is he the only species in the universe where assimilation is slow enough that he can work on it WHILE being assimilated, he's also the only one the cure works for. No, that's just stupid. They might as well have been saved by crab people.
I thought it was clear in the 3rd season that at least in the 26th century the Xindi were part of the Federation. And there were Xindi present at the peace negotiations at the end of the 4th season, or at least I thought I saw a few. Maybe they didn't join immediately but it was strongly suggested in Ent the Xindi would join the Federation.
Yeah, I remember before that Borg episode aired, people were worried about continuity and Berman said "Don't worry, this episode CREATES continuity!" Then after the episode, turned out, no, it just didn't make any sense. If the Borg in the 22nd century indeed sent the signal that caused the 24th century Borg to rush to Earth, you'd think somebody at Starfleet would have noted, huh, we're probably going to be attacked by robot zombies in about 200 years. Hey, let's prepare for it and make at least captain and above aware! There's no explaining the implications of that episode, it was just very, very poor writing.
Even that 'Phlox and only Phlox can survive the cure' thing was a lame transparent contrivance. Not only is he the only species in the universe where assimilation is slow enough that he can work on it WHILE being assimilated, he's also the only one the cure works for. No, that's just stupid. They might as well have been saved by crab people.
I thought it was clear in the 3rd season that at least in the 26th century the Xindi were part of the Federation. And there were Xindi present at the peace negotiations at the end of the 4th season, or at least I thought I saw a few. Maybe they didn't join immediately but it was strongly suggested in Ent the Xindi would join the Federation.
The Borg thing from ENT was probably just another Weird Freaky Alien Incident #424,503* that would only be interesting to obsessive historians of Earth's early history, not really important in the long run of the history of the Federation. Probably not enough of note for even Data to make the connection, even after it was revealed what a threat the Borg were.
As far as the Hanson's go, they were just another small group of scientists out doing their thing. How many Weird Freaky Alien Incidents would be reported to the various Federation science institutes, Starfleet, and the like, all day every day? And how many would never get reported? "Oh, the Hanson's disappeared out in the depths of space? Who are they again? What were they doing? Shadowing Cybernetic Alien Species #132? I guess they just followed a bit too close, just like that one Telarian ship yesterday studying Salamander Alien Species #43."
*The Vulcans, etc have been doing this whole exploring space thing for a while, after all.
As far as the Hanson's go, they were just another small group of scientists out doing their thing. How many Weird Freaky Alien Incidents would be reported to the various Federation science institutes, Starfleet, and the like, all day every day? And how many would never get reported? "Oh, the Hanson's disappeared out in the depths of space? Who are they again? What were they doing? Shadowing Cybernetic Alien Species #132? I guess they just followed a bit too close, just like that one Telarian ship yesterday studying Salamander Alien Species #43."
*The Vulcans, etc have been doing this whole exploring space thing for a while, after all.
I think the "future time agent" idea is probably closest to the mark. Cochrane and Lily I could buy as due to the fragmented nature of Earth at the time - records probably didn't survive and anyway would be focused on the Vulcan first contact and warp drive.
But Archer's encounters? They shouldn't have happened but for the Borg time travelling. DTI, Timefleet or Daniels' faction likely covered that one up, but not well enough that rumours didn't survive to clue in Seven's parents (the El-Aurian survivors that Kirk saved might have slipped a few hints Starfleet's way as well...)
To the poster who asked if the Vulcans shouldn't have noticed that Earth was mostly assimilated in FC... the point was that Earth WOULD have been assimilated had the Enterprise NOT gone back and prevented them. As it was, they changed history so the Borg never got the chance - Cochrane's Earth was untouched.
But Archer's encounters? They shouldn't have happened but for the Borg time travelling. DTI, Timefleet or Daniels' faction likely covered that one up, but not well enough that rumours didn't survive to clue in Seven's parents (the El-Aurian survivors that Kirk saved might have slipped a few hints Starfleet's way as well...)
To the poster who asked if the Vulcans shouldn't have noticed that Earth was mostly assimilated in FC... the point was that Earth WOULD have been assimilated had the Enterprise NOT gone back and prevented them. As it was, they changed history so the Borg never got the chance - Cochrane's Earth was untouched.
That was me and someone corrected me. The vision of an assimilated Earth was while they were traveling through time and not the arrival point which is what had me a bit confused. In my own ignorance, I thought for some reason most of the Earth had been assimilated with Cochrane's camp untouched.
The Xindi are also Federation members. A Xindi Reptilian is the Federation's Secretary of Science and Space Exploration. Or rather was, during TNG's first season. Still, I doubt such a position would go to someone who didn't belong to a Federation member race.
If only there were some way that Archer and company could have had access to the records and logs and data of the Ferengi ship --- say, by overpowering its crew or taking it captive for some time --- then perhaps it would have been possible for them to learn something about their mutton-headed adversaries.
Having "access" to the logs and records and actually being able to read them are two different things. The Ferengi are paranoid SOBs and apparently even Hoshi's magical linguistics skills couldn't break their code.
This is the theory I suscribe to.
I find it the simpliest way to retcon events. Every Trek episode and movie after First Contact takes place in the altered timeline where the Borg were a part of events during the first warp flight, whereas all the eps and films before FC take place in a timeline where the warp flight was unaffected and the Enterprise E crew were not present. Star Trek: Enterprise therefore takes place in a completely different timeline to the TOS we knew (and the Trek '09 continuity is itself a further break from the FC-altered timeline seen in ENT), including the presence of the Borg in the episode "Regeneration". My feeling is that this didn't take place in 'our' TNG timeline. The Hansens set out looking for the Borg 20 years earlier in whatever the timeline has transformed into. So chances are pretty good that in the 24th century Trek universe as it existed before First Contact, Annika Hansen may never have been assimilated into Seven of Nine at all.
But everything that happened in First Contact had always happened. Picard, Riker, and the Enterprise-E had always traveled back to 2063 and helped Zephram Cochrane launch the Phoenix. It's a temporal loop. We just didn't know any of that had happened yet because we hadn't reached the "beginning" of the loop in 2373. There is no altered timeline; it's the same timeline it's always been.
How do we know, though? It's never stated on-screen 'Oh, we must have been a part of the loop all along'. As you said, "we didn't know it yet" does open up the possibility that the variables did in fact change when the Borg went back in time. Maybe originally Cochrane launched the Pehonix just fine with his two original co-pilots and the Borg were never involved at all. Flash forward to the 24th century though, and suddenly there's this variable thrown in there --- the Borg going back in time and, for example, killing Cochrane's two co-pilots in their initial assault on Earth in the 'past' --- and yes, the Enterprise crew technically DO restore events to something resembling their original intent by the end of the movie, and in so doing "restore" a version of the 24th century they knew. But with Riker and Geordi in the co-pilots seats and Borg tech being left behind afterwards (as shown in ENT:Regeneration), we can't be certain those events actually happened in the original timeline, in that exact way. So maybe not everything is exactly the same.
While the token elements remain the same, there is the possibility that the oft-posited theory that the timeline did change slightly has got creedence. There's at least as much evidence in the movie itself to support that theory as there is to support the idea that the Borg and the Enterprise crew had always been there at the Pheonix launch, and that it was all just some kind of temporal loop that was being fulfilled.
I like to occasionally point out that prior to First Contact, the display wall in the Enterprise observation lounge did not include a model of the NX-01 Enterprise, subsequent to FC it did.
I believe historically there always was a NX series of starships, but none of them was named Enterprise. It was only after Deanna told Cochrane that the ship in orbit was named Enterprise that Cochrane years later used his influence to have the first NX named Enterprise.
The "first time through" there was no Borg attack on the area of the missile silo. And also, Riker and LaForge were not on the Phoenix, it was originally Cochrane, Lily and a third person (perhaps one of the dead from the Borg attack).
Possibly the NX-01 was named "Phoenix?"
A member of one of the Xindi races could be a citizen of one of planets that has a membership in the Federation, without any of the Xindi worlds possessing membership.
If the Reptilian immigrated to (or was born on) say Vulcan, then there would be no restriction on them becoming a Federation official. Even though they are not of a "member race."
There is alternately the possibility that the Federation is open minded enough to recruit the best people possible for a given position, regardless if they come from a member planet.
The whole thing makes me wonder what qualifies in Star Trek for creating an alternate reality? I mean, people seem to go back in time, change history and still remain in the same timeline but you have other times, like Nero, who go back in time and change history and create a new universe. How come this doesn't happen with Picard and many other examples throughout the series but happens when Nero goes back in time?
How do we know, though? It's never stated on-screen 'Oh, we must have been a part of the loop all along'. As you said, "we didn't know it yet" does open up the possibility that the variables did in fact change when the Borg went back in time. Maybe originally Cochrane launched the Pehonix just fine with his two original co-pilots and the Borg were never involved at all. Flash forward to the 24th century though, and suddenly there's this variable thrown in there --- the Borg going back in time and, for example, killing Cochrane's two co-pilots in their initial assault on Earth in the 'past' --- and yes, the Enterprise crew technically DO restore events to something resembling their original intent by the end of the movie, and in so doing "restore" a version of the 24th century they knew. But with Riker and Geordi in the co-pilots seats and Borg tech being left behind afterwards (as shown in ENT:Regeneration), we can't be certain those events actually happened in the original timeline, in that exact way. So maybe not everything is exactly the same.
While the token elements remain the same, there is the possibility that the oft-posited theory that the timeline did change slightly has got creedence. There's at least as much evidence in the movie itself to support that theory as there is to support the idea that the Borg and the Enterprise crew had always been there at the Pheonix launch, and that it was all just some kind of temporal loop that was being fulfilled.
Because the timecops on Voyager said so.
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