BECAUSE THE JOKE IS SERIOUS BUSINESS
Why were most of the women Yeomen?
- Thread starter Gotham Central
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It had nothing to do with being a woman. She was drunk on duty again and didn't expect to have to drive. We know this because it is her counselling technique as evidenced in First Contact!
One more time: The ship fell out of orbit and she landed it without any fatalities. That is amazingly, astonishingly GOOD piloting. The jokes about it being "bad driving," regardless of the excuse, are totally off the mark, unfair, and insulting to a character who performed an extremely heroic feat. It's a stupid, ugly joke and it needs to die.
You both are right. I went and rewatched the crash sequence, and yes, she engages in some great flying to regain attitude control of the saucer once its entered the atmosphere.
But, there's still 15-second from the detonation of stardrive section to the where she's fails to input any commands to the helm. This is the critical time frame when the saucer is caught in the planet's gravity and a non-crash landing becomes truly unavoidable.
Outside circumstances? Sure.
Pilot Error? Appears that way.
Great flying to recover from the mistake? Looks to be the case.
Still, as helmsman, she would bear some responsibility for "crashing the ship." (But no more than Riker would for losing a vessel under his command.)
But, there's still 15-second from the detonation of stardrive section to the where she's fails to input any commands to the helm. This is the critical time frame when the saucer is caught in the planet's gravity and a non-crash landing becomes truly unavoidable.
Outside circumstances? Sure.
Pilot Error? Appears that way.
Great flying to recover from the mistake? Looks to be the case.
Still, as helmsman, she would bear some responsibility for "crashing the ship." (But no more than Riker would for losing a vessel under his command.)
But then we wouldn't get all the hilarious "woman driver" jokes if it had been Riker? Right?
Of course it's sexist! Personally I don't mind this level of sexism though. Rand is a ludicrously sexist character but also one of my favourites because she is so hilariously blatant (plus it was the sixties). Troi crashed the ship only because the writers wanted to use her character in some way and it wsa her or random ensign 3. Even so, we should still be able to get some comic mileage out of it.
I object more to the low-level subconscious sexism with the modern characters that left Troi languishing in a low cut top instead of a proper uniform for over 5 seasons, or that means we never get all-female security teams, or that leaves the new movie almost devoid of any women who aren't girlfriends and moms.
This is all part of Trek's sexist legacy. Kara Thrace crashed her ship loads of times but she is acknowledged as a good pilot and in context, as you say, crashing the ship without dying was quite an achievement. Troi could have been a much less ridiculed character if she had been treated as an officer first and ship's counselor second. Fair play to Marina, she was really keen to keep playing Troi towards the end of the series because the writers were finally beginning to understand that (although it would have been better if they had acknowledged that Troi WASN'T commander material because she empathised with the crew too much - not her fault but then I feel quite strongly that Chekov wasn't commander material either).
Are you sure that's the reason she was there...? Has this story been corroborated elsewhere...?
You sound surprised. It's pretty well known that Roddenberry would pretty much shag any woman who was not legally his grandmother.
You know, the show is horribly sexist but at the time it probably wasn't as bad as it could have been. I think they made a slight effort, I mean the main crew has a russian character, an asian, a scottish character, a black female and an alien character. It would have been pretty easy for them to make the whole crew white american males, so they have to get a certain amount of credit.
That being said one of my favorite episodes is The Enterprise Incident, and not in a small part because of the Romulan captain. In the whole series I think she was probably the only really strong (sane) female character
That being said one of my favorite episodes is The Enterprise Incident, and not in a small part because of the Romulan captain. In the whole series I think she was probably the only really strong (sane) female character
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I also have never seen any indication that Roddenberry's use of the casting couch ever went so far as to say "if you don't sleep with me, you won't get the part." In other words, I've never heard that he pressured women to sleep with him. Rather, I've always gotten the impression that it was more like you say, that he tended to cast women he would like to have a chance to sleep with and that those he was regularly involved with, like Barrett and Nichols, got favorable casting.
Oh, boo hoo, the joke is sexist. Who the hell cares? It's a joke. It Voyager's captain had been a man, we'd hear just as many stereotypical jokes about how the man refused to stop and ask for directions. No one actually is seriously trying to say that the fictional crash of the Enterprise-D demonstrates that women are bad drivers. It's just a funny joke. And one that I believe Marina Sirtis herself has made. Or at least she's made alot of jokes about her piloting the ship. Alot of stereotypical humor is actually very funny and unless its meant with malice, there's nothing wrong with that.
You sound surprised. It's pretty well known that Roddenberry would pretty much shag any woman who was not legally his grandmother.
I was but not about Rodders' habbits; I hadn't heard that particular story and wanted to check its veracity.
There are so many urban myths out there that one finds it imprudent to simply accept anecdotes at face value without question...
It is one of the better episodes of the 3rd season, and Laura Linville does a tremendous acting job with a juicy, well-written role.
However, and this has been stated many times, but although the Commander was a strong role, the writing still showed 1960s' era sexism. After all, she was tricked into losing the mission and her ship because she fell for Spock's romantic wiles. I don't think you'd see a male captain being written as that irresponsible.
Doug
It was a bit sexist but if you set it against the backdrop that she was part of the Romulan faction that has a romantic fascination with their Vulcan roots it is at lesat partially explainable without putting it down to just her sex.
You're right. If they'd just left Troi in the kitchen where she belongs, there would've been none of this 'women drivers' nonsense.
Indeed. In a lot of ways, TOS wasn't as progressive or inclusive as its hype often suggests -- or at least, it wasn't the most progressive show in that regard. Look at its contemporary Desilu show, Mission: Impossible. Although Cinnamon Carter was explicitly there to play the role of the seductress and the damsel in distress on their missions, she was portrayed as a smart, strong, capable agent, and as early as episode 6 she got a scene where she defeated a male thug in hand-to-hand combat. (And then there was Emma Peel in The Avengers, who took it even farther.) Meanwhile, whereas Trek's nonwhite characters tended to be relegated to the supporting cast, M:I had Barney Collier, a brilliant, charming, heroic black man who was just as central as any other member of the cast, and often the most indispensible member of the team.
Trek was, like any show, a product of its times and oftentimes reflected those times. The fact that women were apparently not allowed to be captains, for example. (Retcon that all you want with various justifications, but it's obvious that's what the writer of the time meant.)
But, OTOH, I think it's a bit unfair to suggest that Trek's non-white characters were relegated to the background out of some latent racism. All of Trek's supporting cast, white and non-white, was relegated to the background a majority of the time because, despite what some of those cast members try to say today, TOS was never an ensemble show. It was a show in the traditional format where you had a couple of stars, a guest star of the week, and the supporting cast were just that -- supporting.
At the time, characters like Sulu, Uhura, and even Scotty weren't thought of as stars, and they were not written to be stars. It definitely was not the ensemble atmosphere that would come later with TNG and DS9.
Still, despite its flaws, I think TOS did do a decent job of reflecting an integrated society. First, Spock was technicially a non-white character. He wasn't even human. But, beyond that, you did have a black woman, an Asian, a Scotsman, and a Russian making up the supporting cast. Out of a "main cast" of seven, only two -- Kirk and McCoy -- were actually white, American males.
But, OTOH, I think it's a bit unfair to suggest that Trek's non-white characters were relegated to the background out of some latent racism. All of Trek's supporting cast, white and non-white, was relegated to the background a majority of the time because, despite what some of those cast members try to say today, TOS was never an ensemble show. It was a show in the traditional format where you had a couple of stars, a guest star of the week, and the supporting cast were just that -- supporting.
At the time, characters like Sulu, Uhura, and even Scotty weren't thought of as stars, and they were not written to be stars. It definitely was not the ensemble atmosphere that would come later with TNG and DS9.
Still, despite its flaws, I think TOS did do a decent job of reflecting an integrated society. First, Spock was technicially a non-white character. He wasn't even human. But, beyond that, you did have a black woman, an Asian, a Scotsman, and a Russian making up the supporting cast. Out of a "main cast" of seven, only two -- Kirk and McCoy -- were actually white, American males.
I'm suggesting nothing of the kind. I'm simply pointing out that, while TOS did undoubtedly make a good-faith effort at inclusion, it wasn't the most inclusive show on the air because both Sulu and Uhura remained in the background, unlike Mission: Impossible's Barney Collier, who was a central player throughout that show's 7-year run. I'm not accusing anyone of having a sinister motive behind that. On the contrary, if TOS had developed the way it was originally intended, as an ensemble series, then Sulu and Uhura would no doubt have gotten plenty to do. But the way things went instead was that Spock became the breakout star so the network pushed for more emphasis on him, and Roddenberry and Shatner wanted Kirk to be the star, so it ended up revolving more and more around those two along with McCoy, who was closely linked to both characters. And as a result, the rest of the cast got marginalized.
Besides, both Star Trek and Mission: Impossible were brought to the screen by Desilu executive Herb Solow and both were presumably under the same Paramount exec once Desilu was absorbed and Solow left. These were sister shows. They were shot on adjacent soundstages and their casts and crews hung out together. Greg Morris's kids even guest-starred in "Miri." So it would make no sense to allege that one of those two shows was influenced by racism while the other was not.
So I know perfectly well that there was no hidden racial motive. I wasn't making any such insinuation. I'm just pointing out that, for all its good intentions, TOS wasn't at the front of the pack when it came to inclusion. It was part of a broader effort on the part of NBC and other networks to make their shows more inclusive, and it certainly did its part and deserves credit for that, but it wasn't as unique or as far ahead of the curve as the mythology would have it.
I don't necessarily think falling for Spock means the role was sexist. I don't think anyone expects to be tricked so brutally by a Vulcan, but when she found out she handled the betrayal with more strength than a lot of real women would. He obviously deserved to be slapped, and she was prepared to execute him (though it seemed she didn't want to,) and she also ordered the Enterprise to be fired upon with her on board. And at the very end she parted with Spock with dignity.
It also has to be considered that Romulans are the enemy, so obviously they were not going to be written as winning against the Federation. I think we've seen male commanders lose their ships in more irresponsible ways than that before too. I don't really even see her defeat as being her fault, K+S's trick was convoluted, planned for weeks, and well executed. I don't think any commander would have stood much of a chance.
Also, she didn't really even lose her ship. She was to be dropped off at the nearest space station and (I assume) returned to Romulus and to her ship from there.
The romulan empire would probably have been pretty pissed at her for the whole thing though. Awe I feel so sorry for her
Here's the title sequence...the song is by Smokey Robinson & the Miracles!
Joanne.
^I think we've just seen an instance of someone confusing Joanne Linville with Larry Linville.
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