Why Wasn't Neelix considered a candidate for removal after season 3?

[Emperor Norton]

They had been stung by DS9 and were told to replicate the apparent winning formula of TNG - little conflict within. Which kinda drained away the potency of the Maquis angle right away. Voyager stayed too close to the TNG formula and what should've been more disconsolate trip across the galaxy mostly seemed nothing more urgent than the usual-alien-each-week-five year jaunt.

I have a hefty dislike for both pixie and court jester characters in anything frankly. I find them routinely aggravating. But both actors did a good job when the writers gave them stuff with a bit of bite.

But I'm not unduly knocking Voyager here. It was a cracking series. But they could've certainly darkened it and duplicating some of the TNG template hindered it.

The problem with DS9 wasn't what it was. It was that it was serial as much as episodic, and there were problems with syndication competition with TNG until that show went off the air. I have a soft spot for Voyager, although I can critique the issues with it (which I won't do here for the most part). Voyager could have been more morally complicated, bridging a gap between the style of DS9 and TNG. I think a problem with it is if you wanted to do TNG part II, literally just do so. Keep it in known space as a different ship and different characters than the Enterprise. Exploring the galaxy after the Dominion War frankly would have been interesting in itself. New missions with the same formula, and with a changed galactic stage in the background. I think among the problems with both VOY and ENT was that they did not tailor it enough to the characters and setting. It felt all too often like it was a story that could have happened to any other show. And the other shows did not do that. For a terrible metaphor, it's like throwing a tarp named "Star Trek" over furniture. In TNG and DS9, it took the shape of the furniture underneath it. In VOY and ENT, it often didn't take the shape of anything it covered.

 

[Prax]

The problem with DS9 wasn't what it was. It was that it was serial as much as episodic, and there were problems with syndication competition with TNG until that show went off the air. I have a soft spot for Voyager, although I can critique the issues with it (which I won't do here for the most part). Voyager could have been more morally complicated, bridging a gap between the style of DS9 and TNG. I think a problem with it is if you wanted to do TNG part II, literally just do so. Keep it in known space as a different ship and different characters than the Enterprise. Exploring the galaxy after the Dominion War frankly would have been interesting in itself. New missions with the same formula, and with a changed galactic stage in the background. I think among the problems with both VOY and ENT was that they did not tailor it enough to the characters and setting. It felt all too often like it was a story that could have happened to any other show. And the other shows did not do that. For a terrible metaphor, it's like throwing a tarp named "Star Trek" over furniture. In TNG and DS9, it took the shape of the furniture underneath it. In VOY and ENT, it often didn't take the shape of anything it covered.

And here the thread gets derailed. When someone starts a sentence with "I think the problem was...." They are engaging in typical non sequitur arguments, usually to satisfy their desire to bemoan something that gives them pleasure to.....bemoan.

All this "TNG Part II" stuff is nothing more than nonsense. Voyager was very different in terms of setting, goals, and ESPECIALLY characters. DS9's producers had a very easy job in terms of coming up with stories to tell. TNG had already done all the heavy lifting in terms of world building. Many of DS9's stories were stories that could exist (and do)in almost any drama show.

What's this about damage to the ship resetting? I hear this often. Do you have any examples? Is this actually a real thing?

 

[Voth commando1]

Are you saying Voyager lacked a distinctiveness? I beg to differ it may have not had the same "this is totally the anti-TNG" that DS9 was but it wasn't a TNG copy cat.

Honestly it could have been called Star Trek Odyssey heck you have elements from the Odyssey-Workforce, and the Caretaker-Maquis plot connection.

And to say it lacked continuity I think is unfair as well.

However I will advocate for episodic shows all day long, I don't want to tune in and not understand what's going on because I haven't seen the past 6 parts of the arc/episode.

In today's world of Downton Abbey, Game of Thrones, and Breaking Bad that may sound quaint but not everybody has the time or inclination to watch everything through in order.

Voyager was episodic enough you didn't need to know details of what happened the episode before last.

As for characterization well Voyager had three main stars-Janeway who I think changes a lot from Caretaker(and Relativity) to the bitter and jaded woman seen in Endgame, Seven-from drone to eventual integration, and of course the doctor who really was the heart of the show. Tuvok was a fourth place runner up and simply by being a tertiary character wasn't as developed as the previous three.

Neelix grows obviously from Caretaker to Homestead.

Tom and B'lanna develop as well-Tom Paris matures and becomes a family man yet doesn't loose his charm and friendliness, B'lanna accepts her Klingon heritage and comes to term with her daddy issues.

Kes-given her short life span she really wasn't going to grow much. I'd say Ocampa are born fast, learn fast, love fast and die fast.

Harry and Chakotay were of course the least developed and the ones with the most hostile actors and really there's not much else to say.

I love Voyager, it has a bubbliness and homeliness yes, it has dark and serious episodes and comedy episodes combined with episodes that are in between the two with varying degrees of success.

All in all I think Voyager was a good show perfect? No but an integral part of Trek to me and many others.

 

[Voth commando1]

And here the thread gets derailed. When someone starts a sentence with "I think the problem was...." They are engaging in typical non sequitur arguments, usually to satisfy their desire to bemoan something that gives them pleasure to.....bemoan.

All this "TNG Part II" stuff is nothing more than nonsense. Voyager was very different in terms of setting, goals, and ESPECIALLY characters. DS9's producers had a very easy job in terms of coming up with stories to tell. TNG had already done all the heavy lifting in terms of world building. Many of DS9's stories were stories that could exist (and do)in almost any drama show.

What's this about damage to the ship resetting? I hear this often. Do you have any examples? Is this actually a real thing?

They have to land once to do major repairs and reworks, they always mention acquiring dilithium, trading it, often prospecting for it. It's not as neglected as people make it out to be.

 

[Prax]

Here's some more dark episodes:
Faces
phage
Resistance
Meld
Deadlock
The Thaw
Tuvix(at least the ending)
Basics part 2
The Chute
Nemesis
Revulsion
Extreme Risk

 

[stardream]

This guy in the video hits the nail on the head many times!

Some of the things he said was similar to things I've written before, like comparing with Picard if he all of a sudden would be turned into a moron and how little sense it would make.

A very good analysis of the worst episode in the history of TV series.

I thought the way he described Picard randomly deciding to stab everyone with a glass shard hilarious and on point.

 

[Voth commando1]

Here's some more dark episodes:
Faces
phage
Resistance
Meld
Deadlock
The Thaw
Tuvix(at least the ending)
Basics part 2
The Chute
Nemesis
Revulsion
Extreme Risk

No course oblivion?

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

Why would he have been? Neelix, the Talaxian aboard brought a comforting and warm.presence to the crew, without forgetting the pledge humor, a certain wisdom (different from Tuvok but as essential as the latter) and his knowledge of Delta Quandrant ,which helped a lot to go through the danger.
Nah, the role of Neelix was important but alas, from s4, he was essentially used as Naomie's babysitter then later, Borg children. It was clear that he craved to love (and to be loved in return) and to feel useful.
It was sad to see him leaving at the beginning of S7 but well, would he have had a future on Earth? I don't think so.

 

[Prax]

Neelok could have a future anywhere. He's a real go-getter.

 

[Anna Yolei]

Someone way, way earlier in the thread mentioned Garrett Wang's unprofessional behavior being a reason he was on the chopping block originally, but famously got a reprieve since his inclusion in a top 100 Sexiest People poll gave the show publicity. Assuming that was true, that would explain also why Rick Berman flat out refused to guest direct on ENT.

Aside from all of that, as annoying as he could be, Neelix did serve a purpose of being Voyager's window into the Delta Quadrant, something that neither the Doctor nor even Seven could do. I do think Ethan Philips didn't get nearly as many opportunities to show his acting range: when he got meaty material such as Jetrel, he knocked it out the park.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

Because Neelix was a popular character as much for viewers as for the rest of Voyager cast

 

[Sophie74656]

Those pictures!

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

"Everybody loves Neelix" to parody an other famous character of US TV show!

 

[Sophie74656]

Here's some more dark episodes:
Faces
phage
Resistance
Meld
Deadlock
The Thaw
Tuvix(at least the ending)
Basics part 2
The Chute
Nemesis
Revulsion
Extreme Risk

I would add Mortal Coil

 

[LJones41]

They had been stung by DS9 and were told to replicate the apparent winning formula of TNG - little conflict within. Which kinda drained away the potency of the Maquis angle right away. Voyager stayed too close to the TNG formula and what should've been more disconsolate trip across the galaxy mostly seemed nothing more urgent than the usual-alien-each-week-five year jaunt.

One of the complaints about "VOYAGER" that really irritates me is this demand that the Maquis conflict should have used throughout the series. For seven seasons? In a region in which they had more to worry about than the Maquis, the Federation and Cardassians?

It is so frustrating in coming upon such complaints over and over and over again. Especially since this Federation v. Maquis scenario made little sense to me in a series set thousands of light years away from where the conflict originated. Granted the Federation and Maquis crewmen had their occasional clashes in Seasons One and Two - especially between Chakotay and Tuvok. But the idea of this conflict going on for seven seasons strikes me as redundant, unoriginal and impractical, considering the series' setting. Ironically, the series provided a good deal of internal conflict, due to the personalities of the main characters. The only other series that I thought really showcased this same type of conflict was "Deep Space Nine".


As for Neelix, I'm glad that he stuck around until the end. I enjoyed the character and I enjoyed Ethan Phillips' portrayal of him. And for me, I especially enjoyed his relationships with two other characters - Tom Paris and Tuvok.

 

[Prax]

One of the complaints about "VOYAGER" that really irritates me is this demand that the Maquis conflict should have used throughout the series. For seven seasons? In a region in which they had more to worry about than the Maquis, the Federation and Cardassians?

It is so frustrating in coming upon such complaints over and over and over again. Especially since this Federation v. Maquis scenario made little sense to me in a series set thousands of light years away from where the conflict originated. Granted the Federation and Maquis crewmen had their occasional clashes in Seasons One and Two - especially between Chakotay and Tuvok. But the idea of this conflict going on for seven seasons strikes me as redundant, unoriginal and impractical, considering the series' setting. Ironically, the series provided a good deal of internal conflict, due to the personalities of the main characters. The only other series that I thought really showcased this same type of conflict was "Deep Space Nine".


As for Neelix, I'm glad that he stuck around until the end. I enjoyed the character and I enjoyed Ethan Phillips' portrayal of him. And for me, I especially enjoyed his relationships with two other characters - Tom Paris and Tuvok.

I agree. From a lot of these comments it seems like there's a big misunderstanding of just what the Maquis were. They were never at war with thw Federation. They were Federation colonies inside the 'demilitarized zone' that were being attacked by Cardassian colonies also in the DZ. The Federation wouldn't help them militarily because they didn't want a return to conflict with Cardassia. Most were human, and many were former Starfleet. They were only around for 2 or 3 years prior to VOY, and Chakotays crew(of 30) shouldn't have much of a problem acclimating on Voyager.

And of course we actually do see Maquis/Starfleet conflict. We have Seska who did whatever she wanted, that guy that was feeding the Kazon intel, Lon Suder, the four guys from "Learning Curve", plus the things you mentioned.

 

[Griffeytrek]

Let's not forget the obvious. Ethan Phillips was a publicly known and well experienced actor, who probably had a better agent and representation, and history with Producers. He was a seasoned professional and probably had a much better and tighter contract. Garret Wang and Jennifer Lien were bottom tier tv actors with likely nowhere near the history or representation that Phillips had. Keep in mind Phillips alone also provided steady work for the makeup department just from the weekly complexity of his needs. If they want to make a cast change, without the higher ups screaming "Budget" those in production will try to fire or replace the person that has the minimal impact on the jobs of the production staff.

Why exactly they didn't kill off Chakotay still remains a mystery to me?

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

Why exactly they didn't kill off Chakotay still remains a mystery to me?

What a good question, indeed.
Knowing that Chakotay became a dead weight in last seasons, RB being relegated to second plan, far behind Janeway, Seven and the EMH, to kill off somebody relatively close of Janeway like Chakotay, as supposed friend and her First Officer, so close to the goal, would have been an event in a season very dull. And I think that the 7x21, "Friendship One", would have been an excellent occasion : instead of killing Carey, who was already seriously hurt besides (victim of a concussion), Chakotay could have come between Carey and Otrin, when this lattest shot, as a final act of bravery and to be deadly wounded. He would die aboard Voyager surrounded by his friends.
It would have been a very deserving exit for a character and his performer, maybe more moving than the departure of Neelix but well, Universal & CBS executives seemed to live in the Bisounours land, where everybody is quite kind, everybody is quite beautiful and... everybody is safe and sound!

 

[Prax]

He had some character focus. Shattered, Workforce, Natural Law, a bit in Human Error.

Besides, if the killed him off can you imagine the complaining that would still be going on? It'd be worse than Trip.

 

[LJones41]

Why exactly they didn't kill off Chakotay still remains a mystery to me?

Chakotay? With his sly and warped sense of humor? Without him, I would have never enjoyed the development of the Captain/First Officer dynamic between him and Janeway - especially between Season One and the "Equinox' episode at the end of Season Five and the beginning of Season Six. And he was also at the center of one of my favorite "Voyager" episodes of all time - "Shattered".