Why Wasn't Neelix considered a candidate for removal after season 3?

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

Because he brings a lot to the crew (humor, kindness, acceptance, understanding), except when he is in his kitchen and cook some of his questionable recipes!

The only one who would have disappeared at the end of S3, was Enseign Harry Kim and (not Kes). Plus, with the making of Paris/Torres from S4, even if the friendship between Tom and Harry kept running, Harry became the 3rd wheel of the carriage ...

 

[JirinPanthosa]

They never get rid of the weird crazy characters, they always get rid of the most normal character.

For me what was holding Neelix back was their unwilling to give him a dark side. This is a man whose race has been scattered by a genocide. They never did anything with this after Jetrel, or gave any real hints in his personality that he's affected by this. If they had given him some Quark moments where he comments on Federation values as an outsider he could have been more interesting, and still had his happy boisterous side too.

 

[Sophie74656]

Yes that is my opinion and I'm standing by it. I've always liked Neelix as a character but I feel like he was held back by Kes. Once she left I think his stories and development became much better

 

[2takesfrakes]

Our views can only differ in this matter. I sometimes wonder, Sophie, if even Transwarp Drive can traverse such a vast distance, as this. Kes is sweet, helpful and beautiful. Whilst Neelix is an irritating space hyæna, whose wardrobe choices are typically ... ill-considered. I did like how he never did quite fit in, until the very end, when the crew was so glad to see him go, that all of the nameless extras on the show actually lined the halls he had to walk through - just to make sure he couldn't double back. I rejoiced. But when Kes left Voyager - seemingly, forever - I died, inside. It's like, "on" goes the Water Works. Kleenex always appreciates the business, when that episode plays, because I'll go through one ... after ... another.

 

[Lynx]

For me, Voyager ended when Kes was dumped.

And not only that! My interest in Star Trek took a heavy blow too.

Up to that, I had been a 100% fan. I watched TNG with great pleasure and also the few episodes of DS9 one of my pathetic channels did air (only first season) and my interest started to go on overdrive when Voyager arrived.

Up to then, I couldn't understand the criticizm of Berman, Braga and the others in charge which from time to time turned up on various forums. "Why are they complaining? They have given us a great show!" I thought.

But when Kes was dumped and the aftermath of that gave me another view of all that. It was so rude, so unnecessary. "They are trying to show us a better future and then they act like greedy, sex-obsessed Ferengi" I thought.

As a protest I stopped watching Voyager there and then. After all, I did have TOS, TNG and the first three seasons of Voyager to watch.

But I couldn't abandone Voyager. After two years, I did have an urgent need to catch up with the old favorites again. Not to mention that I had hope about a Kes come-back. After all, they did bring Dr. Crusher back, didn't they? So I borrowed tapes from a shop which rented Voyager VHS tapes to catch up with what I've missed. But I must admit that it wasn't the same as it had used to be, something important was missing!

Finally I did catch up with my local station's airing of Voyager, it was in the beginning of season 6.

Then it happened!

The horrible insulting s**t episode in season 6!

Fortunately I was warned by some friends in the US where that episode had been aired several months before. But I had never expected such a disgusting, insulting, humiliating piece of crap which was thrown into my face.

So I stopped watching, this time for good. The only episode I watched after that was "Endgame". I made up my mind to watch it about 60 seconds before it started on TV. Afterwards I wish that I had never watched it at all. A sad end to a series which had started so well.

Not to mention that the purpose of that episode in season 5 was to turn Kes into a horrible monster, it turned me into a monster as well which everyone who did encounter me on different forums must have noticed.

All of that was a reason why I couldn't stand "Enterprise". OK, I had been against a retro series even before "Enterprise" started and when it started I was put of by the boring characters and the constant screw-ups of established Trek history. But worst of all was seeing Berman's, Braga's and Fuller's names on the credits.

I guess that I'm more civilized now when I'm trying to see all the good things with Star Trek. After all, I do have my TOS, TNG and DS9 dvd's and most valuable of them all, the three first seasons of Voyager!

 

[2takesfrakes]

It's so true, what they say ... about how "Life Imitates Art." I mean, STAR TREK: Voyager had wronged both Kes and Jennifer Lien in many ways. So many ways. And Jennifer brought everything to the table that an up-and-coming starlet should bring: she was cooperative, talented and absolutely beautiful. It hardly seems fair. In fact ... it wasn't. And Kes was made insane and destructive, in the end - as Ms. Lien's own Life eventually became. But her presence on Voyager, whilst it lasted, was a singular mark of favour. The series only benefitted from her contributions. Indeed ... her fanbase is not at all insubstantial.

 

[Voth commando1]

Our views can only differ in this matter. I sometimes wonder, Sophie, if even Transwarp Drive can traverse such a vast distance, as this. Kes is sweet, helpful and beautiful. Whilst Neelix is an irritating space hyæna, whose wardrobe choices are typically ... ill-considered. I did like how he never did quite fit in, until the very end, when the crew was so glad to see him go, that all of the nameless extras on the show actually lined the halls he had to walk through - just to make sure he couldn't double back. I rejoiced. But when Kes left Voyager - seemingly, forever - I died, inside. It's like, "on" goes the Water Works. Kleenex always appreciates the business, when that episode plays, because I'll go through one ... after ... another.

I know your being sarcastic but they weren't happy to see him go they were devastated both the characters and actors. Jeri Ryan said she couldn't hold back tears because she liked Ethan Philips.

 

[stardream]

For me, Voyager ended when Kes was dumped.

And not only that! My interest in Star Trek took a heavy blow too.

Up to that, I had been a 100% fan. I watched TNG with great pleasure and also the few episodes of DS9 one of my pathetic channels did air (only first season) and my interest started to go on overdrive when Voyager arrived.

Up to then, I couldn't understand the criticizm of Berman, Braga and the others in charge which from time to time turned up on various forums. "Why are they complaining? They have given us a great show!" I thought.

But when Kes was dumped and the aftermath of that gave me another view of all that. It was so rude, so unnecessary. "They are trying to show us a better future and then they act like greedy, sex-obsessed Ferengi" I thought.

As a protest I stopped watching Voyager there and then. After all, I did have TOS, TNG and the first three seasons of Voyager to watch.

But I couldn't abandone Voyager. After two years, I did have an urgent need to catch up with the old favorites again. Not to mention that I had hope about a Kes come-back. After all, they did bring Dr. Crusher back, didn't they? So I borrowed tapes from a shop which rented Voyager VHS tapes to catch up with what I've missed. But I must admit that it wasn't the same as it had used to be, something important was missing!

Finally I did catch up with my local station's airing of Voyager, it was in the beginning of season 6.

Then it happened!

The horrible insulting s**t episode in season 6!

Fortunately I was warned by some friends in the US where that episode had been aired several months before. But I had never expected such a disgusting, insulting, humiliating piece of crap which was thrown into my face.

So I stopped watching, this time for good. The only episode I watched after that was "Endgame". I made up my mind to watch it about 60 seconds before it started on TV. Afterwards I wish that I had never watched it at all. A sad end to a series which had started so well.

Not to mention that the purpose of that episode in season 5 was to turn Kes into a horrible monster, it turned me into a monster as well which everyone who did encounter me on different forums must have noticed.

All of that was a reason why I couldn't stand "Enterprise". OK, I had been against a retro series even before "Enterprise" started and when it started I was put of by the boring characters and the constant screw-ups of established Trek history. But worst of all was seeing Berman's, Braga's and Fuller's names on the credits.

I guess that I'm more civilized now when I'm trying to see all the good things with Star Trek. After all, I do have my TOS, TNG and DS9 dvd's and most valuable of them all, the three first seasons of Voyager!

Lynx, check this out. Watched it and thought of you.

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[2takesfrakes]

I know your being sarcastic but they weren't happy to see him go they were devastated both the characters and actors. Jeri Ryan said she couldn't hold back tears because she liked Ethan Philips.

Neelix was there the whole series' run, so obviously, he was bringing to the show whatever the balls it was they expected from him. Ethan Phillips comes across as 'harmless,' if you like. I'm sure he got along with everyone, but then again, why wouldn't he? He was middle-aged, even then and just happy to be employed as a character actor. He wasn't going to set Hollywood on fire and he had no illusions about that. In short, Ethan Phillips seems to be a nice guy to work with.

Neelix, on the other hand only works on the level of Court Jester and it's just so hard to take. And what really bothers me about Ethan Phillips' performance is that he embraces that aspect, that part of it. Maybe it's the mask and the fact that he's playing off Tim Russ' straight man routine that makes Ethan feel like he's onto something.

But Neelix has no finesse. No nuance. There's no middle ground with him - you're either going to love him, or dislike him. He's got a tragic past, he wears these cartoonish outfits and, for a while at least, had a hot girlfriend, but it never elevates him past The Village Idiot status, mostly because of the way Ethan plays him. And this is what passes for "loveable," you know? "Neelix, what a guy!" Get the hell out of here, he's a handjob! Get rid of him ...

 

[LJones41]

To me, Neelix is more interesting than Kes.

It sounds as if you wanted him to be perfect or ideal, which odd considering that most of the original characters aren't. Thank God.

 

[2takesfrakes]

I wanted him to be perfect -- me? I wouldn't have said that, exactly. It's just that he features so heavily. You know, LJones41? Why must Chakotay, Tuvok and Paris be the only Men onboard with any balls? We've got Harry Kim who's so addicted to the holodeck, that he can't even concentrate on his job, sometimes, when he's on duty. Then, there's Vorik, the token nerd. And finally, we've got Neelix, always trying to insinuate himself into the goings-on, that everybody else is up to because he's almost never actually invited. I understand the ship's predicament ... that Voyager welcomes the misfits and whatnot, like ... that's it's thing, you know? And that's alright, it's just that ... a little Neelix would've gone a long way. When they keep pouring on the Neelix action ... it's like, "what use is he? Why's he even onboard? We can flip our own burgers ..."

 

[Prax]

I wanted him to be perfect -- me? I wouldn't have said that, exactly. It's just that he features so heavily. You know, LJones41? Why must Chakotay, Tuvok and Paris be the only Men onboard with any balls? We've got Harry Kim who's so addicted to the holodeck, that he can't even concentrate on his job, sometimes, when he's on duty. Then, there's Vorik, the token nerd. And finally, we've got Neelix, always trying to insinuate himself into the goings-on, that everybody else is up to because he's almost never actually invited. I understand the ship's predicament ... that Voyager welcomes the misfits and whatnot, like ... that's it's thing, you know? And that's alright, it's just that ... a little Neelix would've gone a long way. When they keep pouring on the Neelix action ... it's like, "what use is he? Why's he even onboard? We can flip our own burgers ..."

Ethan Phillips is an incredibly talented actor. Like many of Voyagers cast, he comes the theatre stage, and not hollywood. He already earned his accolades on Broadway, and to that, he went back to.

As for Neelix, give him a chance. He was hugely valuable to Voyager. He pointed out where different resources could be acquired, pointed out cultures to trade with, cultures to avoid, different aliens borders, etc, etc. He also made a good ambassador. Different aliens might be put at ease to see Neelix's face first. Humans are unknown, and not to be trusted by many different species, but Talaxians seem to have a reputation for trustworthiness. Even if you can't stand Neelix, you can't tell me that all the other Talaxians we meet aren't likeable. Even that really untrustworthy Talaxian is likeable.

 

[Voth commando1]

Let's list some of the productive stuff Neelix did.

-provided knowledge of planets, stars, resources
-counseled B'lanna
-counseled Seven
-Assisted in the rescue of the crew in Workforce
-yes he did do diplomacy often introducing other species to Voyager and vice versa
-was Naomi's godfather
-was the cook

Was he grating in the early episodes and first or second seasons? Yes even then he served a useful purpose.

I have no complaints with either the character or actor.

 

[Lynx]

Lynx, check this out. Watched it and thought of you.

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This guy in the video hits the nail on the head many times!

Some of the things he said was similar to things I've written before, like comparing with Picard if he all of a sudden would be turned into a moron and how little sense it would make.

A very good analysis of the worst episode in the history of TV series.

 

[Sakonna]

For me what was holding Neelix back was their unwilling to give him a dark side. This is a man whose race has been scattered by a genocide. They never did anything with this after Jetrel, or gave any real hints in his personality that he's affected by this. If they had given him some Quark moments where he comments on Federation values as an outsider he could have been more interesting, and still had his happy boisterous side too.

That's such a good way to put that. There was a silliness to Neelix, he just never felt real to me. And the way to make it work was right there -- there was a way to present his bubbly personality as a determined choice he was making, after his tragic past. Embracing life and joy and not giving into the darkness, etc etc. The elements were there, but the writing never properly connected them.

In a way, the problems with Neelix represents one of my big problems with Voyager on the whole -- it was such a dark premise, but executed in such a light way. I feel like I could have easily loved the BSG-esque tale of a Federation ship stranded at the far ends of the galaxy and trying to make it home, or I could have loved another ship of adventurers presented in a more fun & fluffy tone than TNG. But it was combining those two concepts that perpetually frustrated me, I just didn't feel like they worked together.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Voyager didn't even need to be as dark as BSG. It only had to be a little dark, and that darkness could even be balanced by comedy episodes. Somebody thought any darkness at all would alienate the audience, and without it they lost their audience even faster.

 

[Prax]

Voyager didn't even need to be as dark as BSG. It only had to be a little dark, and that darkness could even be balanced by comedy episodes. Somebody thought any darkness at all would alienate the audience, and without it they lost their audience even faster.

1stly, Voyager had its fair share of dark episodes, even in the early seasons.

2ndly, Are you actually implying that Voyager lost audience members because it wasn't "dark" enough?

For what cause did DS9 lose its audience? Was it not dark enough? Was it too dark? Is this "dark" you speak of something that can be objectively quantified?

Sorry, I don't mean to sound rude.

 

[Paradise City]

They had been stung by DS9 and were told to replicate the apparent winning formula of TNG - little conflict within. Which kinda drained away the potency of the Maquis angle right away. Voyager stayed too close to the TNG formula and what should've been more disconsolate trip across the galaxy mostly seemed nothing more urgent than the usual-alien-each-week-five year jaunt.

I have a hefty dislike for both pixie and court jester characters in anything frankly. I find them routinely aggravating. But both actors did a good job when the writers gave them stuff with a bit of bite.

But I'm not unduly knocking Voyager here. It was a cracking series. But they could've certainly darkened it and duplicating some of the TNG template hindered it.

 

[Voth commando1]

Voyager had dark episodes, Nemesis, Cathexis, Living Witness, Year of Hell, Course Oblivion.

It had light episodes as well-Q and the Grey, Q2, Tinker Tenor Doctor, Author Author(half of it).

DS9 had its routine ferengi fare and famously Let who is without sin, If wishes were horses and fascination

Then of course it had dark episodes-the prophet episodes, dominion war episodes and so on.

It's rather unfair to say Voyager lacked dark episodes or comedy episodes.

 

[Paradise City]

It had dark episodes, some really dark ones in fact but the series wasn't that dark because they applied the reset button and typically everything was tied up by the time the credits rolled. No visible long term damage was visible on Voyager and by the time we got to those credits, Voyager was as ship shape and as bristol fashion as the Enterprise D ever was over in TNG.