What theories are there on precisely why the incarnation of the Doctor played by John Hurt is disavowed and has had his very existence hidden by subsequent Doctors? He says that he had no choice in what he did, that he did it "in the name of peace and sanity", to which Eleven responds "But not in the name of the Doctor." Judging from what I've heard about the trailer shown at Comic-Con, it seems to be shaping up that the Hurt Doctor fought in the Time War, and it's been speculated that the reason he's been forgotten is his genocide of the Time Lords. But I don't think that can be it, as the Doctor has never denied what he did in the new series. I think it could be because of some other atrocity he committed in the Time War, when he was fighting on the side of Gallifrey. What do the rest of us think?
Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doctor
- Thread starter Noddy
- Start date
Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct
Maybe he betrayed the timelords and at once point sided with the daleks? From what I heard about what the time lords would have done in The End of Time, it sounded like they were the bad guys. Maybe he killed a someone dear to him to save the universe from the time lords or something.
Maybe he betrayed the timelords and at once point sided with the daleks? From what I heard about what the time lords would have done in The End of Time, it sounded like they were the bad guys. Maybe he killed a someone dear to him to save the universe from the time lords or something.
Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct
The John Hurt Doctor retired and became the president of the Eoghan Quigg fan club. Later Doctors were so embarrassed by this that they no longer consider him worthy of the title Doctor.
The John Hurt Doctor retired and became the president of the Eoghan Quigg fan club. Later Doctors were so embarrassed by this that they no longer consider him worthy of the title Doctor.
Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct
I reckon it could be because, while the subsequent Doctors all felt strong guilt and shame over what had been done, the Hurt Doctor doesn't, and feels entirely justified in his actions. His attitude could be a Spock-type "Needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" logic, which some might argue can be pretty callous.
I reckon it could be because, while the subsequent Doctors all felt strong guilt and shame over what had been done, the Hurt Doctor doesn't, and feels entirely justified in his actions. His attitude could be a Spock-type "Needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" logic, which some might argue can be pretty callous.
Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct
And anger the handful of 8th Doctor fans? I don't think BBC is that callous. Besides, I think someone on the production team (Moffat?) had said John Hurt's reincarnation is between 8th and 9th Doctors.
And anger the handful of 8th Doctor fans? I don't think BBC is that callous. Besides, I think someone on the production team (Moffat?) had said John Hurt's reincarnation is between 8th and 9th Doctors.
Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct
Hurt iz not for realz Doktor be cause thats wood cauze teh Whoo fandumb to go "OH NOES!1!!!11!!11 CANNON VIOLASHIONZ!!!111!!1!1".
Hurt is actually Rani in dis guyz anded implaneted in2 realz Doktor's brian. Realz Doktor will get ride of her by pooping her out during regenerashions at ended of X-mas spezial!
Hurt iz not for realz Doktor be cause thats wood cauze teh Whoo fandumb to go "OH NOES!1!!!11!!11 CANNON VIOLASHIONZ!!!111!!1!1".
Hurt is actually Rani in dis guyz anded implaneted in2 realz Doktor's brian. Realz Doktor will get ride of her by pooping her out during regenerashions at ended of X-mas spezial!
Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct
I'm starting to think that maybe they missed a trick by not having John Hurt play Dr Simeon/The Great Intelligence and having Richard E. Grant play the unexplained (not)Doctor. It might have been a cool way of bringing the Shalka into official continuity.
I'm starting to think that maybe they missed a trick by not having John Hurt play Dr Simeon/The Great Intelligence and having Richard E. Grant play the unexplained (not)Doctor. It might have been a cool way of bringing the Shalka into official continuity.
Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct
Yea, that would be most cool. I was very interested in seeing more travelling with "The Master" as his companion.
Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct
Could they even have reconciled the Shalka's Master - voiced by Derek Jabobi - with the new series' Master/Prof Yana - played by Derek Jacobi? Maybe too fanwanky!
Could they even have reconciled the Shalka's Master - voiced by Derek Jabobi - with the new series' Master/Prof Yana - played by Derek Jacobi? Maybe too fanwanky!
Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct
Well, The Doctor's Companion "The Master" robot, didn't look like Derek Jacoby (He looked like Traditional Master with Goatee), so, that little detail could just be ignored, no?
Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct
^Havent actually seen SOTS, so I didn't know that. It was just a thought. All academic anyway, I suppose.
^Havent actually seen SOTS, so I didn't know that. It was just a thought. All academic anyway, I suppose.
Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct
That's basically what I'm leaning towards. The Time Lords likely committed some unspeakably atrocities during the Time War which the Hurt Doctor likely went along with and may even have helped them with a few of them. This likely shames the other Doctors.
That's basically what I'm leaning towards. The Time Lords likely committed some unspeakably atrocities during the Time War which the Hurt Doctor likely went along with and may even have helped them with a few of them. This likely shames the other Doctors.
Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct
Scintillating.
Hurt iz not for realz Doktor be cause thats wood cauze teh Whoo fandumb to go "OH NOES!1!!!11!!11 CANNON VIOLASHIONZ!!!111!!1!1".
Hurt is actually Rani in dis guyz anded implaneted in2 realz Doktor's brian. Realz Doktor will get ride of her by pooping her out during regenerashions at ended of X-mas spezial!
Scintillating.
Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct
Maybe he had the Time Lords and the Daleks come to a peace table but knowing they would never reach an agreement, the Hurt Doctor is responsible for all those nasty things Ten spoke of coming out of the time lock; "Not just the Daleks, but the Skaro Degradations, the Horde of Travesties, the Nightmare Child, the Could-Have-Been-King with his army of Meanwhiles and Never-weres"
Sort of "if you don't come to an greement these things will happen and then you, Doctor Eight (or Nine), will have no choice but to use the "moment!"
Maybe he had the Time Lords and the Daleks come to a peace table but knowing they would never reach an agreement, the Hurt Doctor is responsible for all those nasty things Ten spoke of coming out of the time lock; "Not just the Daleks, but the Skaro Degradations, the Horde of Travesties, the Nightmare Child, the Could-Have-Been-King with his army of Meanwhiles and Never-weres"
Sort of "if you don't come to an greement these things will happen and then you, Doctor Eight (or Nine), will have no choice but to use the "moment!"
Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct
I'm more interested in how Moffat handles the biology of the situation he's just created.
- The Doctor can regenerate 12 times and that's it, meaning 13 Doctors in total.
- Smith is definitely the 11th Doctor and Capaldi will definitely be the 12th.
- If 'Hurtnell' really is a biological incarnation of the Doctor then everyone HAS to move down a number (Eccleston is 10, Tennant is 11, etc).
Unless there's really something we're missing, everything we've been told since 'Rose' is slightly off.
My main issue with both Eccleston and Tennant were acceptant of what they did in the Time War; Nine was keen to remind the Dalek survivor in 'Dalek' that "he made it happen", and wasn't bothered by dumping it all on some hidden incarnation. It's really only been since Smith and his virtual lack of mentioning the Time War at all that it's become an issue.
I'm more interested in how Moffat handles the biology of the situation he's just created.
- The Doctor can regenerate 12 times and that's it, meaning 13 Doctors in total.
- Smith is definitely the 11th Doctor and Capaldi will definitely be the 12th.
- If 'Hurtnell' really is a biological incarnation of the Doctor then everyone HAS to move down a number (Eccleston is 10, Tennant is 11, etc).
Unless there's really something we're missing, everything we've been told since 'Rose' is slightly off.
My main issue with both Eccleston and Tennant were acceptant of what they did in the Time War; Nine was keen to remind the Dalek survivor in 'Dalek' that "he made it happen", and wasn't bothered by dumping it all on some hidden incarnation. It's really only been since Smith and his virtual lack of mentioning the Time War at all that it's become an issue.
Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct
So, what's the Biological issue?
Wether Capaldi is the 13th incarnation, or the one after Capaldi becomes the 13th incarnation, they won't end the show as long as ratings aren't in the toilet.
So, either after Capaldi, or after the next one, they'll either ignore the 12 Regeneration rule, or they'll address it and give him new lives.
Maybe that's why Moffat decided to create an extra Doctor, maybe, because he wants to address the 12 Regeneration rule, and be the one who gives the Doctor new lives before Moffat moves on to his next job?
So, what's the Biological issue?
Wether Capaldi is the 13th incarnation, or the one after Capaldi becomes the 13th incarnation, they won't end the show as long as ratings aren't in the toilet.
So, either after Capaldi, or after the next one, they'll either ignore the 12 Regeneration rule, or they'll address it and give him new lives.
Maybe that's why Moffat decided to create an extra Doctor, maybe, because he wants to address the 12 Regeneration rule, and be the one who gives the Doctor new lives before Moffat moves on to his next job?
Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct
It's not the fact that Capaldi is or isn't the last Doctor; I'm sure they'll write some technobabble to give him another 12 regenerations or something.
It's the fact that Capaldi is the 12th actor to play the role - this is officially designated by Moffat and co during the press release - and yet John Hurt is apparently a 13th actor. So he'll probably get swallowed up by a crack in time or the Doctor is reset/gifted another regeneration - but still doesn't hide the fact that - if John Hurt really is "the Doctor" between 8 and 9 - Capaldi should be 'officially' the 13th, because biologically speaking he has to be.
It's not the fact that Capaldi is or isn't the last Doctor; I'm sure they'll write some technobabble to give him another 12 regenerations or something.
It's the fact that Capaldi is the 12th actor to play the role - this is officially designated by Moffat and co during the press release - and yet John Hurt is apparently a 13th actor. So he'll probably get swallowed up by a crack in time or the Doctor is reset/gifted another regeneration - but still doesn't hide the fact that - if John Hurt really is "the Doctor" between 8 and 9 - Capaldi should be 'officially' the 13th, because biologically speaking he has to be.
Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct
I agree with everything Candlelight has said. The Doctor in his Ninth and Tenth form has been pretty open about he did, and never gave an inclination that he had something to hide in terms of what he did do, which was to end the Time War by wiping out all Daleks and Time Lords. More importantly, WE know this, as an audience, so that doesn't really leave much in the way of mystery.
And even more importantly, I'm not sure the Doctor in his 11th incarnation hid it away, either - Emily seemed to know pretty well of what had happened to the Time Lords, and he frequently mentioned he was the last of his species.
So, really, if the shock twist of the Doctor in his Hurt form has to do with the actual termination of the Time War... Russel T. Davies beat him to it.
I agree with everything Candlelight has said. The Doctor in his Ninth and Tenth form has been pretty open about he did, and never gave an inclination that he had something to hide in terms of what he did do, which was to end the Time War by wiping out all Daleks and Time Lords. More importantly, WE know this, as an audience, so that doesn't really leave much in the way of mystery.
And even more importantly, I'm not sure the Doctor in his 11th incarnation hid it away, either - Emily seemed to know pretty well of what had happened to the Time Lords, and he frequently mentioned he was the last of his species.
So, really, if the shock twist of the Doctor in his Hurt form has to do with the actual termination of the Time War... Russel T. Davies beat him to it.
