Why the hate for the Midi-chlorians?

[Set Harth]

The Skywalkers are an exception. They fulfill prophecy and are "destined" to play their role.

The prophecy was a PT invention, and was specifically about Anakin. When the OT came out, as far as the audience knew, there was no prophecy ( other than the "Son of Suns" thing which wasn't used in the films ).

Everyone else in the galaxy isn't going to train to be a Jedi, but I imagine any Jedi does have the potential to defeat a Sith.

Everyone else in the galaxy isn't going to train to be a Jedi... Why not? If anyone has the potential to be a Jedi, and any Jedi has the potential to defeat a Sith, why just train Luke? What makes Luke the "last hope" according to TESB, long before the prequel trilogy existed?

 

[Starfleet Engineer]

Everyone else in the galaxy isn't going to train to be a Jedi... Why not? If anyone has the potential to be a Jedi, and any Jedi has the potential to defeat a Sith, why just train Luke? What makes Luke the "last hope" according to TESB, long before the prequel trilogy existed?

As I said in a previous post, just like a small percentage of people become Navy SEALs, only a small percentage choose the life of a Jedi.

 

[Set Harth]

As I said in a previous post, just like a small percentage of people become Navy SEALs

Still more than one guy.

 

[Reverend]

As I said in a previous post, just like a small percentage of people become Navy SEALs, only a small percentage choose the life of a Jedi.

Wait, so you're saying that out of the TRILLIONS of beings in the galaxy, any one of them could have become a Jedi during the reign of the Empire, but they just chose not to?

OK, look at it this way. Not all talents are universal, most in fact are innate and some are rarer than others. Not everyone has the ability to win a gold medal in the 100 meters sprint in under 10 seconds. Very few in fact. No matter how hard they train, most never will because the capability just isn't there.
And as for the US Navy Seal, or SAS or whatever comparison, that actually proves the point. The training programs for those outfits have a stupidly high wash-out rate. People have died trying to complete them. You can't tell me that the only thing holding back those that couldn't make it was a lack of willpower. A body is a physical thing and it has it's limits.

It's a fact of nature that not everyone is born with equal talents and abilities, just like in Star Wars, not everyone can access the force. Yes the force is generated by all living things and permeates the whole galaxy, but for the majority of being it's effects are going to be one-way or so subtle as to utterly escape notice.

 

[Starfleet Engineer]

Where is it said anywhere that "not everyone can access the force"? You're just speculating, just like I am. Speculating and interpreting.

 

[Jedi_Master]

The concept of Force-sensitivity (and lack thereof in the majority of people) existed way before the prequel trilogy.

The PT simply gave an unnecessary elaboration of the mechanics.

Kor

Bingo. "It's an energy field created by all living things... It surrounds us and penetrates us... it binds the galaxy together."
Done.

 

[Kor]

Where is it said anywhere that "not everyone can access the force"? You're just speculating, just like I am. Speculating and interpreting.

In the dozens of books and comics that were the only sources of new official Star Wars material for years and years in the '80s and '90s when no new movies were being made.

Kor

 

[Jedi_Master]

@Starfleet Engineer - do you STILL feel that "in-universe" any sentient being could become a Jedi/Sith with the proper training?

 

[Starfleet Engineer]

In the dozens of books and comics that were the only sources of new Star Wars material for years and years in the '80s and '90s when no new movies were being made.

Kor

Dare I mention that dreaded word, canon? Those sources don't count.

@Starfleet Engineer - do you STILL feel that "in-universe" any sentient being could become a Jedi/Sith with the proper training?

I know of nothing stated in the OT that would rule that out. I agree with the idea that some are more force sensitive than others. Some probably have almost none. I don't think there's any mention of how one was selected to become a Jedi in the OT. Luke wanted to become a Jedi because his father was. Why did others? We don't know. Ben tried to begin Luke's training. He starts out weak in the use of the force, but gets better. Yoda talks about his training of Jedi, that Luke is too old to start. Luke can't lift the X-wing out of the water. He needs more training. Training, training, training.

 

[TremblingBluStar]

I agree that Star Wars has always shown that only a very exclusive club of special people can make a difference. In fact, I remember reading an article somewhere back in the 90's about this very thing when comparing SW and Trek, with the jist being Trek showed a universe where anybody, through hard work and determination, could be a hero and SW showed a universe where you had to be part of the special group. I don't necessarily agree 100%, as Han and Chewie got involved in the action through pure chance. I agree when it comes to the Jedi, however. I always got the impression that only certain people were strong in the Force.

Yet, Obi Wan stated that the Force was created by life, and connects "all living things", which negates the idea that everybody, at the very least, is connected to the Force even if they can't become Jedi.

 

[Kor]

Dare I mention that dreaded word, canon? Those sources don't count.

They don't count anymore now that the new PTB have relegated it all to the "Star Wars Legends" dunce corner. But for years, it was all regarded as the official final word on these things.

And the idea that only certain people are Force sensitive most definitely still counts due to its inclusion in both the dreaded prequel trilogy as well as The Clone Wars, which are still canon, and also the new official tie-in material approved by Lucasfilm/Disney, which replaces the old Expanded Universe. It's also pretty apparent in The Force Awakens, even if it isn't spelled out in detail.

Kor

 

[Jedi_Master]

I know of nothing stated in the OT that would rule that out. I agree with the idea that some are more force sensitive than others. Some probably have almost none. I don't think there's any mention of how one was selected to become a Jedi in the OT. Luke wanted to become a Jedi because his father was. Why did others? We don't know. Ben tried to begin Luke's training. He starts out weak in the use of the force, but gets better. Yoda talks about his training of Jedi, that Luke is too old to start. Luke can't lift the X-wing out of the water. He needs more training. Training, training, training.

Sorry bro, but nope. Basing an argument on the lack of explicit contradictory evidence in the source material is fine IF explicit evidence is commonly available in that same source material.
That's not how Star Wars works. Lucas rarely explains things, and if he does it usually makes it worse.

 

[Reverend]

Where is it said anywhere that "not everyone can access the force"? You're just speculating, just like I am. Speculating and interpreting.

Where is it said anywhere that "everyone can access the force"?

The difference is that the one proposition is supported by the material where the other simply is not. If the force sensitivity was really open to anyone then then Jedi would never have gone extinct. If it were mere choice separating the people who could throw starfighters around with their minds from those that can't, then there'd be a hell of a lot more starfighters getting thrown around.

Nobody explicitly says "not everyone can access the force" for the same reason nobody says "not everyone can kill people with their brains". It self evident and to insist otherwise is just obtuse at this point.

 

[Kor]

If anybody and everybody could access and use "The Force," then the Jedi wouldn't have had such a monopoly on its use. There would have been a lot more groups and individuals who had somehow figured out how to use and exploit it. People will do whatever it takes to get power and control.

Even in the new Lucasfilm/Disney tie-in material, there is a group called the "Church of the Force" whose doctrine revolves around "The Force" but whose members are not Force-sensitive and are unable to use "The Force" themselves. Uncle Dramatic Death played by Max Von Sydow was a member of this Church.

Kor

 

[Starfleet Engineer]

As a kid, I didn't spend a lot of time analyzing things to the Nth degree. There wasn't a lot of material to do so with. That mostly came about years after ROTJ. My interpretation was my interpretation. To me, things changed drastically when midichlorians were brought in. I think it was a bad idea. Now things are the way they are and I imagine we'd all agree on what the Jedi are now.

 

[TremblingBluStar]

If the force sensitivity was really open to anyone then then Jedi would never have gone extinct.

Except for the fact that they were hunted down, demonized, and probably outlawed.
Sensitivity to something doesn't automatically mean a person can master it any more than having two working arms and hands means anybody can be Jimi Hendrix.

 

[Set Harth]

To me, things changed drastically when midichlorians were brought in.

Force-detecting paddles came first.

 

[Ithekro]

Being able to use the Force was considered a special trait from a long, long time ago. Before most of the now Legends books even came out. It was pretty much cemented by the Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. It is only possible to think anyone could use the Force in Star Wars in 1977. And even then you have people like Han Solo, who if this things was able to be just anyone, he should have seen something by now instead of calling is "simple tricks and nonsense". It is Obi-wan who plants the idea for Luke to learn about the Force "You must learn of the ways of the Force, if you are to come with me to Alderaan".

 

[Mad Jack Wolfe]

That's pretty much it. The Force was originally portrayed as a ubiquitous thing that could be tapped into. Some are more sensitive to it than others. Some are more innately adept than others. Turning into some quirk of biology simply means anyone with a certain glandular imbalance can become a superman. It cheapens the whole thing and reduces the Force to a genetic hiccup, not that Lucas is above such easy storytelling devices.

 

[Venardhi]

Mind that it also serves the Jedi's political interests for everyone to believe that force sensitivity is rare and innate and that they are the only organization with such members. What may have started as a lie could easily have become dogma over a few centuries as the Jedi lost more and more of the knowledge and power that brought them to the stature they enjoy in the prequels. Midichlorians might have originally measured force activity already ongoing, suggesting someone who already has begun to tap into the force and is at potential risk of becoming a danger to themselves and others without proper guidance, which is why Jedi originally went out looking for such creatures. Over time that method became used for scouting potential Jedi in general and the belief that only those with high midichlorians were capable of learning the force became accepted fact.