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Why the hate for the Midi-chlorians?

M.A.C.O.

M.A.C.O.

Commodore
Commodore
In TPM, Lucas asserts that the Force, and the Jedi's connection to it stems from microscopic organisms that inhabit all living beings. Also in TPM it is theorized that Anakin was conceived by the Midi-Chlorians, and ater in ROTS, it is overtly hinted at that Anakin Skywalker was created by Plagus or Sidious using Midi-Cholorians.

Outside of introducing power levels, and giving a scientific explanation for what only a few hundred Jedi and however many handful of Sith exist at the moment; I never understood why some people say this ruined Star Wars.

The Redlettermedia reviews being one of the most vocal critics of the Prequels and the many aspects the PT introduced.

Midi-Chlorian talk at 8:50 mark.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBvp1r2UpiQ[/yt]


Is is because the Force worked like magic in the OT, and assigning a scientific explanation to the Jedi's abilities ruins the mysticism about it? Because if that is the case, I don't think any mysticism is lost.
 
M.A.C.O. said:
In TPM, Lucas asserts that the Force, and the Jedi's connection to it stems from microscopic organisms that inhabit all living beings. Also in TPM it is theorized that Anakin was conceived by the Midi-Chlorians, and ater in ROTS, it is overtly hinted at that Anakin Skywalker was created by Plagus or Sidious using Midi-Cholorians.

Outside of introducing power levels, and giving a scientific explanation for what only a few hundred Jedi and however many handful of Sith exist at the moment; I never understood why some people say this ruined Star Wars.

The Redlettermedia reviews being one of the most vocal critics of the Prequels and the many aspects the PT introduced.

Midi-Chlorian talk at 8:50 mark.



Is is because the Force worked like magic in the OT, and assigning a scientific explanation to the Jedi's abilities ruins the mysticism about it? Because if that is the case, I don't think any mysticism is lost.
Click to expand...

That's part of it. It makes it more a scientific pursuit, rather than being able to learn about the Force and becoming a Jedi regardless of who you were. Suddenly, becoming a Jedi wasn't something anyone could do, but only the very special and elite can become Jedi. So, it becomes an exclusive club, which isn't very appealing to me.

Also, the other aspect of it is that it is used purely as a way of showing that Anakin is awesome without actually have him do something awesome. His "midi-clorians" are off the scale, which means hes the best.

For me, it simply was a cheat to try and convey how special and important Anakin was without any actions to back it up. If we saw Anakin using the Force, doing things that just came naturally to him but were remarkable to everyone else, then I would have liked it.

It just came across very, um, forced, rather than allowing Anakin to grow as a character.

Midi-clorians had potential as a story device, but they really didn't pay off in a meaningful way, save for the creepy implication that Plageus or Palpatine was Anakin's creator, because they could manipulate the midi-clorians to create life, according to Palpatine.

It feels very empty and hollow and goes nowhere. It makes Luke less special because, instead of rising up and learning and becoming a Jedi, he just was born right. :rolleyes:

Ruined Star Wars? Nothing in the PT "ruined" Star Wars for me, but there were many things I just though were unnecessary.
 
Well Luke and Leia to a lesser extent, were tagged with a bit of the 'special' back in the OT. Even in the OT, the Force didn't seem like something everyone could do, and it had seemingly faded into obscurity by the time of ANH.

Han Solo could never become a Jedi or force user, because he doesn't have it in him to be one. That's ok, neither could Gran Moff Tarkin or the scores of other officers in the Empire.

In the PT, there seems to be only several hundred or so Jedi from all corners of the Galaxy. So having the Midi-Cholrian count high enough to be admitted to the Jedi was still a rarity, when you consider how large the galaxy is and the large populations of each planet.
 
Which makes the whole "no relationship" aspect of the Jedi Code make no sense, since Force sensitivity is apparently hereditary, rather than something you learn and cultivate through training.
 
fireproof78 said:
Which makes the whole "no relationship" aspect of the Jedi Code make no sense, since Force sensitivity is apparently hereditary, rather than something you learn and cultivate through training.
Click to expand...

Yeah.... that is an oversite on Lucas' part. As was Obi-Wan and Yoda not training Luke and Leia from childhood to combat their father, who was a Sith Lord. When you look at the PT and how they seemingly train toddlers and little children in the ways of the Force. The Skywalker twins should've merited the same kind of training. The Jedi's mandate being to destroy the Sith, I think trumps the notion that Obi and Yoda would be raising Luke and Leia to potentially kill their own father. If Luke and Leia weren't related to Vader, they would have presumably been trained to destroy the Sith regardless.
 
fireproof78 said:
It makes it more a scientific pursuit, rather than being able to learn about the Force and becoming a Jedi regardless of who you were. Suddenly, becoming a Jedi wasn't something anyone could do, but only the very special and elite can become Jedi.
Click to expand...

Well, everyone has some midichlorians, the film makes that clear. So if midichlorians provide Force sensitivity, then everyone is sensitive to the Force on some ( possibly miniscule ) level. This parallels how the Force is said to be generated by all living things in the OT. However, in practice the OT did not actually promote the concept that anyone could become a Jedi. The only OT characters who either became Jedi or were said to have the potential to become Jedi happened to be members of a certain special bloodline.

fireproof78 said:
For me, it simply was a cheat to try and convey how special and important Anakin was without any actions to back it up. If we saw Anakin using the Force, doing things that just came naturally to him but were remarkable to everyone else, then I would have liked it.
Click to expand...

Uh... we did see that. He was said to be the only human who could successfully podrace. It just came naturally to him, and was remarkable to others. He also displayed ESP on Coruscant.

fireproof78 said:
It makes Luke less special because, instead of rising up and learning and becoming a Jedi, he just was born right.
Click to expand...

Those things aren't mutually exclusive. And Luke was never just some random guy. He was the son of a powerful Jedi.
 
M.A.C.O. said:
Is is because the Force worked like magic in the OT, and assigning a scientific explanation to the Jedi's abilities ruins the mysticism about it?
Click to expand...

Not so much that it robs mysticism as that it adds a largely useless complication. Like much else in the prequels, it's a superfluous "explanation" that nobody was asking for. The word "midichlorian" is meaningless filler that adds zilch to the story; there is no line it exists in at any point where it's really needed to convey anything, there's no plot point that requires it, it's clutter for the sake of it. (Which when one thinks about it is a pretty handy metonymy for the prequels as a total exercise.)
 
NaughtyJake said:
The word "midichlorian" is meaningless filler that adds zilch to the story
Click to expand...

Midichlorians help promote the theme of symbiosis in the film. This was something Lucas wanted to explore, for whatever reason. Was it required of him to do so? No, but he shouldn't be pilloried for it. He's from a different era. Once upon a time, it would have seemed reasonable to assume that science fiction fans would be open to new ideas.
 
I think Lucas's intent was to make Jedi seem less parochial and metaphysical, by riffing on "mitochondria," a word we all know from fourth grade science.

But that sort of misses the point. And it didn't really work the way he intended, anyway.
 
Set Harth said:
Once upon a time, it would have seemed reasonable to assume that science fiction fans would be open to new ideas.
Click to expand...

Cosmetic technobabble doesn't qualify as a "new idea," but I can certainly believe it was an attempt to make the proceedings sound like Big Idea SF. If so it was misbegotten; despite Joe Campbell's attempts to convince him otherwise, Lucas was never suited to Big Idea SF. (At any rate I certainly didn't find myself thinking at any point in TFA, "Boy, I wish they'd take a time out here and go to a lab and analyze Rey's midichlorians.")
 
I don't "Hate" the Midi's, but I can describe my dislike; I feel negatively toward the concept and creation of Midi-chorians in the same way I feel about the concept and creation of "Anti-Time", in TNG. Something "wrong" and vaguely "dumb" with both concepts, in my opinion. Plus, as it has been stated above, being a Jedi is less training-based and more genetic/birth related. Just my Two Galactic Credits.
 
I personally thought this was the superior explanation:

[YT]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2YQJsbbWNA[/YT]
 
It tried turning Science Fantasy into Science Fiction and that didn't work for most people. Lucas got the "tone" wrong so many times in the prequels.
 
NaughtyJake said:
M.A.C.O. said:
Is is because the Force worked like magic in the OT, and assigning a scientific explanation to the Jedi's abilities ruins the mysticism about it?
Click to expand...

Not so much that it robs mysticism as that it adds a largely useless complication. Like much else in the prequels, it's a superfluous "explanation" that nobody was asking for. The word "midichlorian" is meaningless filler that adds zilch to the story; there is no line it exists in at any point where it's really needed to convey anything, there's no plot point that requires it, it's clutter for the sake of it. (Which when one thinks about it is a pretty handy metonymy for the prequels as a total exercise.)
Click to expand...
Basically this. Except that, while the plot didn't require the addition of the midi-chlorians, their inclusion into TPM ("life-forms living together for mutual advantage") fits the explicit attempt to include the "symbiont-circle" motif also mentioned by Obi-Wan to Boss Nass.

Of course, the Anakin-Qui-Gon explanation scene itself sticks out like a sore thumb. But I appreciate the thematic attempt, anyway.

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoVpSPXGCvc[/yt]

YMMV
 
As others have said, it gave an explanation to something that didn't need explanation it also reduced the mystical nature of The Force to a quantifiable thing.

As the ANH clip shows us, Obi-Won explains The Force like this mystical, magical, thing. Calling it a "religion" is maybe going too far (since The Force actually exists, can be seen and observed) but he doesn't cloud it in anything sciencey. He wants Luke to believe in or know about this powerful Force that surrounds everything and can be used in great, or horrible ways.

He speaks like, well, a man with religion. (Again, not a fan of that idea of it, but it's what we'll go with.)

In TPM it goes from the mystical thing to a scientific variable. Qui-Gon doesn't speak like a man of religion he speaks like a scientist because *now* the Force is something that can be measured and defined.

And we *could* get into a science-over-religion debate here but it's not applicable because in our world the two things oppose and conflict with one another on what they say about the universe. People who believe in one seldom believe in the other because the two contrast so much, especially since religion's universe origins conflict so strongly.

So someone says "evolution" and another person says "creation" there's a contrast. They're talking about two different things and both have their own sources to pull data from to prove their side is right and both sides can argue the other has it wrong since nothing can be 100% proven.

But, here, in SW universe it's different. The "science" of The Force is something that can be seen and measured. It's like a present-day science the creationists accept because it's not something that conflicts with The Bible or religion. Like blood types, or how the systems of our body work. These are things that can be seen and measured.

So the Force goes from a religion -again, one that has obvious effects- to a science. It's something that can be measured.

Which brings into question on how some can deny the existence of the Force when it can be seen, measured and quantified? Maybe The Empire suppressed knowledge and teachings of it making it shrouded in some level of mystery but it still seems hard to believe they did so in 20 years and that Han had never heard of the Force being able to be measured by a blood-test.

It explained something that need not be explained, and worse yet nothing was ever done *with* the explanation. It's useless information that gives us nothing.

As another poster said, it was Lucas's lazy way of writing and handling the prequels and the first checkmark in a long list of things he did to *say* Anakin was special and unique without really showing it to us. Yeah, we see him operate the pod when we're told humans can't do it, but that's almost as far as that idea goes. We're still basically *told* that Anakin has this high number of a quantifiable thing that makes him special and unique.

We're *told* he's this great warrior and pilot and we never quite, really, see it. We're *told* he and Obi-Won had these great battles and are friends when all we see is Anakin being a whiny bitch who defies Obi-Won at every opportunity.

It was nonsense and not something we needed in there. It adds and gives us nothing. It only tells us that Anakin is special because he has this high midichlorian count. rather than showing us.

And him operating the pod is still "telling" us since we're told no human can do it without Jedi reflexes, and we're shown nothing about the pod's operation that suggests it's beyond a normal human's grasp. Seeing him doing things with The Force naturally without training, like Force-pulling things, the mind-trick, etc. or even displaying quick reflexes in a more mundane situation would have shown the thing better.

But, nah, he's got High Thetan Levels, see? This test shows us. So he's special!
 
fireproof78 said:
That's part of it. It makes it more a scientific pursuit, rather than being able to learn about the Force and becoming a Jedi regardless of who you were. Suddenly, becoming a Jedi wasn't something anyone could do, but only the very special and elite can become Jedi. So, it becomes an exclusive club, which isn't very appealing to me.
Click to expand...

But it wasn't sudden. In the SW universe, way before the idea of midi-chlorians in TPM, not just anybody could learn to use "The Force" and become a Jedi. It was already limited to certain individuals.

As expanded upon in the now-defunct EU, a person had to be "Force-sensitive" to become a Jedi, and it was pretty rare for a person to have that sensitivity and the capacity to learn to use "The Force" in the first place. There was no scientific explanation of why certain people were "Force-sensitive" and why most people were not.

Then the midi-chlorian thing came along and explained the biological mechanics of "Force-sensitivity" that already existed in the SW universe. But I think the explanation was unnecessary. The "why" of "Force-sensitivity" would have been better left a mystery.

Kor
 
fireproof78 said:
That's part of it. It makes it more a scientific pursuit, rather than being able to learn about the Force and becoming a Jedi regardless of who you were. Suddenly, becoming a Jedi wasn't something anyone could do, but only the very special and elite can become Jedi. So, it becomes an exclusive club, which isn't very appealing to me.

Also, the other aspect of it is that it is used purely as a way of showing that Anakin is awesome without actually have him do something awesome. His "midi-clorians" are off the scale, which means hes the best.

For me, it simply was a cheat to try and convey how special and important Anakin was without any actions to back it up. If we saw Anakin using the Force, doing things that just came naturally to him but were remarkable to everyone else, then I would have liked it.

It just came across very, um, forced, rather than allowing Anakin to grow as a character.

Midi-clorians had potential as a story device, but they really didn't pay off in a meaningful way, save for the creepy implication that Plageus or Palpatine was Anakin's creator, because they could manipulate the midi-clorians to create life, according to Palpatine.

It feels very empty and hollow and goes nowhere. It makes Luke less special because, instead of rising up and learning and becoming a Jedi, he just was born right. :rolleyes:

Ruined Star Wars? Nothing in the PT "ruined" Star Wars for me, but there were many things I just though were unnecessary.
Click to expand...

Everything said here, plus it makes no sense they would not have been mentioned at all in the original films. If they are what connects a person to the Force, you think Yoda or Obi-Wan would have discussed them at least once.
 
The last arc of the Clone Wars (Yoda's arc) puts the mystery back into the midi-chlorians by giving them a mystical origin and pointing out the Jedi had it wrong up to that point. The explanation given to Yoda through the Force reflects more what Obi-wan told Luke later on. A Balance between the Living Force and the Universal Force.
 
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