Why the Dominion could never beat the Borg

[Sci]

Do two pyrrhic victories really deserve the title of "multiple victories?" In both instances, the Federation lost so many ships and personnel compared to the Borg that they might as well have lost.​

So even when the Borg lose they win?

Frankly, yes, that's exactly how I would characterize the 2366-67 and 2373 incursions. The Federation sacrificed at least 60 ships, total, to defeat two cubes. That's a 30:1 loss ratio for the Federation. That's huge. Even when the Federation won, it still lost, and even when the Borg lost, they still won.

 

[Deks]

Thanks. Your what if Borg are of equal interest.

'What if Borg'? They were portrayed in the show to be technologically superior to virtually all species in the Milky Way galaxy (perhaps apart from Voth).

Again we don't know how many ships. The Dominion seemed to be based in the Cardassian system and relied on the Founders to infiltrate the Klingons and the Federation. An advantage they lost with the closure of the wormhole.

On-screen evidence:
From the visual inspection of the footage, the convoys coming through the wormhole were rather large in terms of ship counts. The dialogue also stated that it was a third (or larger number... not sure) convoy coming through the wormhole 'that' week (which points in the direction the Dominion was sending their ships for more than 1 week to the Cardassian territory).

Cardassia was nothing after the Klingon attacks. The Dominion were also fighting the Federation and the Klingons.
Yet they still managed to take over multiple planets in the Federation. More than the Borg could do.

Cardassia made a sufficient enough recovery after the Klingons invaded with the Dominion's help ... enough to apparently send a whole fleet of their own ships (supplemented by the Dominion ones) into the fight that started the war.
The Dominion took planets from the Feds and lost them.
The Borg were not really interested in mass assimilation of Federation planets at the time of making incursions into their territory (if anything, one of Federation planets was destroyed .. accompanied by numerous Federation/Romulan outposts in the Neutral Zone).
If they were interested in mass assimilation of Federation planets, they would have done so promptly.
Also, the Borg have assimilated planets roughly 7000 LY's from Federation territory ('Q Who').
Guinan's homeworld included ... not to mention a bunch of other planets throughout the quadrants of the Milky Way galaxy, with highest concentration being in the DQ where the central territory of the Hive is located (and was mentioned being vast).

Your dislike with DS9 (as far as I get the impression) is clouding your rational judgment, no?

Actually, DS9 was entertaining enough for me to watch. It was merely irritating in it's often dumb down portrayal of the war given the technological development of interstellar powers that were waging the war.
Other Trek shows suffered from same issues (because the writers could rarely fit the drama with highly advanced technology on-screen without dumbing things down).
So no, I don't think my judgment in this instance is clouded given the fact I acknowledge similar faults existing in other Trek series, nor does it state I dislike DS9.

Which they haven't done on screen. One cube at a time. The Dominion could also send 20,000 ships and ram the borg.

I distinctively recall that the Borg were sending more than 1 ship to assimilate species 10026. 3 ships to be exact (2 cubes and 1 diamond).
There is 0 evidence to support the claim the Dominion had/has 20 000 ships at their disposal.
The Borg on the other hand were referenced by Chakotay in Scorpion to possibly have millions of ships (which could have easily been interpreted as an exaggeration to begin with so he could persuade Janeway not to pursue her plan, but close to hundred thousand or several times as many could definitely work for the Collective as they have resources to construct a unimatrix ... the one in the DQ dwarfed fleets of cubes by MANY factors and contained trillions of life-signs).
As for the Dominion's ramming tactics ... easily countered with draining tractor beams and evasion through usage of TW drive.
This apparent Dominion tactic wouldn't easily work on the Borg, and they can always adapt to withstand such ramming.
They usually capture ships in tractor beams and hold them in place easily enough so they can carve them out while maintainig fire on other vessels.

I don't think so. I think even terms, the Dominion with their multiple resources would put up a hell of a fight against the Borg.

As would any other race faced with an invasion (repeating what someone else stated).
The Dominion also stated the Federation was vast and would be difficult to control. This alone suggests it's larger than the Dominion and has more resources at it's disposal. But it's also evident that the Dominion used it's resources in a very different fashion compared to the Federation and had different priorities.
My point was that the Dominion or any other larger power would be vastly outmatched if the Borg decide to come in large enough force.
They would all put up a fight, but eventually loose.

 

[Myasishchev]

Frankly, yes, that's exactly how I would characterize the 2366-67 and 2373 incursions. The Federation sacrificed at least 60 ships, total, to defeat two cubes. That's a 30:1 loss ratio for the Federation. That's huge. Even when the Federation won, it still lost, and even when the Borg lost, they still won.

^Characterizing outdated Fed starships as the capital or strategic equivalent of a Borg cube for purposes of a ratio might be overreaching. Both in terms of casualties (14,000 to 100,000+) and economic loss (40 ships nearing the end of their operational lives versus a Borg warship likely more massive than all 40 ships combined, and certainly more expensive), the first invasion of Earth was more or less a draw.

The second invasion saw the Borg defeated by conventional means. It's unlikely as many ships were lost this time, due to newer designs and a greater emphasis on warfighting ability. Sector 1 was likely a net win for the Federation.

Of course, we know the Borg possess far greater military resources than the entire AQ and probably GQ can generate, and they don't care about lost cubes or drone casualties, but all this does is mean that they can throw away more valuable assets for less return than a smaller power.

 

[Damask]

'What if Borg'? They were portrayed in the show to be technologically superior to virtually all species in the Milky Way galaxy (perhaps apart from Voth).

Yes the what-if Borg. Ie what-if the Borg didn't send one ship to take on the Federation. Which is pretty much all we have seen of the Borg who take on the Federation. The Federation you're comparing to the Dominion.

On-screen evidence:
From the visual inspection of the footage, the convoys coming through the wormhole were rather large in terms of ship counts. The dialogue also stated that it was a third (or larger number... not sure) convoy coming through the wormhole 'that' week (which points in the direction the Dominion was sending their ships for more than 1 week to the Cardassian territory).

How many ships though? What percent of that was their total fleet? 20%? 5%? We don't know so we can't compare the total Dominion resources in the gamma quadrant.

If they were interested in mass assimilation of Federation planets, they would have done so promptly.

If I can recall the only Federation planet they assimilated was Earth. However they used time travel for that. In fact the Borg couldn't cause any damage on Earth unless they time traveled as opposed to the Dominion.

So no, I don't think my judgment in this instance is clouded given the fact I acknowledge similar faults existing in other Trek series, nor does it state I dislike DS9.

Fine, just don't presume tell me my views are clouding my judgment okay?

I distinctively recall that the Borg were sending more than 1 ship to assimilate species 10026. 3 ships to be exact (2 cubes and 1 diamond).

Fine, 3.

As for the Dominion's ramming tactics ... easily countered with draining tractor beams and evasion through usage of TW drive.

Against how many Jem'hadar ships though? All swarming around crashing into Borg cubes? Including some of the larger ships? If I reall the Borg missed the shuttle that Data and Worf were on?

This apparent Dominion tactic wouldn't easily work on the Borg, and they can always adapt to withstand such ramming.

Can you elaborate? How do you adapt to ships running into you? But then again the Borg would just adapt to everything right?

My point was that the Dominion or any other larger power would be vastly outmatched if the Borg decide to come in large enough force.
They would all put up a fight, but eventually loose.

Possibly it depends on the force the Borg send. What force the Dominion can muster and what the Founders can do to offset the Borg.

The Borg might win, the Dominion might win but I don't think it's as clear cut as a numbers game.

 

[Deks]

Yes the what-if Borg. Ie what-if the Borg didn't send one ship to take on the Federation. Which is pretty much all we have seen of the Borg who take on the Federation. The Federation you're comparing to the Dominion.

The Borg sending only one ship to take on the Federation is rather self-explanatory.
Taking periodic samples, testing adaptability of the Feds, and gaining knowledge on newly developed technologies to oppose the Hive.
They'd likely do the same with the Dominion, and lose a cube in the process just like with the Feds.
On a related note, the Borg sent hundreds of cubes to assimilate Arturis people completely ... further solidifying that if they want to completely assimilate a race for good or merely exterminate them, they send a sizeable force and not just 1 vessel (species 10026 had 300 000 individuals on their planet in 'Dark Frontier' and 39 ships that entered the battle in question (38 of which were completely destroyed).

How many ships though? What percent of that was their total fleet? 20%? 5%? We don't know so we can't compare the total Dominion resources in the gamma quadrant.

The exact number was not given, but likely up to a thousand or double by the time the Wormhole was mined.
They had to have a large enough force to secure themselves and jump start the Cardassians so they can take them prepared into battle.
That could have easily been half of their fleet with the rest staying in the GQ unaffected because the Dominion knew they would be fighting in AQ and not on their home turf.

If I can recall the only Federation planet they assimilated was Earth. However they used time travel for that. In fact the Borg couldn't cause any damage on Earth unless they time traveled as opposed to the Dominion.

They couldn't?
The cube almost made it to Earth heavily damaged fighting more advanced SF ships along the way in First Contact.
In BobW (the first time the Borg took on SF), the cube destroyed 40 ships at Wolf 359, reached SOL, eliminated all threats, got to Earth, disabled all of it's planetary defenses and was preparing to assimilate the planet.
Only because of using unconventional strategy on the Ent-D part did the Borg fail.

Fine, just don't presume tell me my views are clouding my judgment okay?

Uhm, you basically stated earlier that the Dominion would be able to fight off an all out invasion of multiple Borg ships when that same organization had difficulties with taking over the Alpha Quadrant by force (with assistance), and admited the Federation was vast and would be very difficult to control.

Against how many Jem'hadar ships though? All swarming around crashing into Borg cubes? Including some of the larger ships? If I recall the Borg missed the shuttle that Data and Worf were on?

The Dominion would be essentially just as slow gathering a scattered fleet to oppose the Borg properly as the Feds were because they are still limited by regular warp drive.
The Borg can pop out effectively anywhere, and they only missed the shuttle because the Enterprise-D created a diversion using anti-matter spreads to hide the shuttle's trail.

Can you elaborate? How do you adapt to ships running into you? But then again the Borg would just adapt to everything right?

How do you adapt?
By analyzing their movements/behavior and using tractor beams to keep the ships at bay. Perhaps even moving the ships under tractor beams to collide with the ramming ships.
The Borg can adapt to various tactics/situations and can absorb extremely large power before taking damage. It's just a matter of time before they adapt.

Possibly it depends on the force the Borg send. What force the Dominion can muster and what the Founders can do to offset the Borg.
The Borg might win, the Dominion might win but I don't think it's as clear cut as a numbers game.

Hundreds of cubes. Just like they did it with Arturis people perhaps?
Against that kind of a force, the Dominion (or for that matter, any other larger power in the Milky Way that we got to know by now ... incl. the Feds) is toast.

 

[Sci]

Can you elaborate? How do you adapt to ships running into you?

Presumably by shooting them before they can do it. Or hitting them with a tractor beam on reverse to alter their course. Or developing strong enough shields to withstand them. Or by building their cubes large enough to withstand it or to function even with the damage. Or by simply sending a large enough armada that they wouldn't be able to ram enough ships to stop the Borg.

 

[Jono]

From the visual inspection of the footage, the convoys coming through the wormhole were rather large in terms of ship counts. The dialogue also stated that it was a third (or larger number... not sure) convoy coming through the wormhole 'that' week (which points in the direction the Dominion was sending their ships for more than 1 week to the Cardassian territory).

It was the fifth convoy in as many weeks. So that's 5 convoys of Dominion vessels entered the Alpha Quadrant, which I guess probably includes the initial wave in "By Inferno's Light".

Cardassia made a sufficient enough recovery after the Klingons invaded with the Dominion's help ... enough to apparently send a whole fleet of their own ships (supplemented by the Dominion ones) into the fight that started the war.

Yet they didn't have enough ships to protect a facility as critical as a shipyards.

The Dominion also stated the Federation was vast and would be difficult to control. This alone suggests it's larger than the Dominion and has more resources at it's disposal. But it's also evident that the Dominion used it's resources in a very different fashion compared to the Federation and had different priorities.

The US is over 9,000,000 square kilometres and Iraq is under 500,000 and look how much difficulty the US has had in controlling that. That's even with the fact they have a technological advantage, have a highly trained and skilled military and can reach any point in Iraq in the matter of hours.

Compare that to the Federation which is at its widest point is 8,000 ly. It would take days or weeks to respond to certain locations given the limitations of the Dominion's warp technology. Add to that you have thousands of worlds to administer and possibly 150 distinct species to deal with in environments from lush worlds to frozen wastelands or deserts. Of course that is going to hard to control.

 

[Damask]

Hundreds of cubes. Just like they did it with Arturis people perhaps?
Against that kind of a force, the Dominion (or for that matter, any other larger power in the Milky Way that we got to know by now ... incl. the Feds) is toast.

One might have said the same thing about the Dominion and the Federation. In the end the Dominion with their superior force lost to Federation science and divine intervention. The Borg lost multiple times to Federation smarts. Which is why I don't think superior force is the easy answer. It's never been in Star Trek.

The Borg sent thousands of cubes to take over a planet? The Founders took over Cardassia without firing a single shot.

 

[Deks]

But the Borg only sent 1 ship against the Feds up until this time ... of course the Feds would be able to repel such an attack.
Any sufficiently developed civilization would.
They grow and adapt with each Borg incursion and are more successful each time ... against 1 cube.
If the Borg sent hundreds of cubes against the Federation, they wouldn't stand a chance.
It would take too long for SF to properly gather it's fleet ... along with the Dominion because they are both limited to regular warp drive.
The Borg up until recently had the ability to get within half a LY from Earth itself.
I could imagine the Borg doing that for virtually any major power secretly as 'just in case' scenario so they can easily put the non-assimilated races into a state of disarray if they decide to mount a full scale invasion/assimilation/extermination (whichever).

The Dominion lost partly because the wormhole aliens interfered and removed the Dominion fleet of 2000 ships ... getting those 2000 ships into the AQ was implied it would be bad for the Alliance, but not a complete defeat either.
2000 extra ships against combined organizations of Feds/Klingons/Romulans?
Lame.
These are interstellar empires that span thousands of LY's and have thousands of ships at their disposal.

The Borg sent hundreds of cubes to take over/assimilate Arturis system/people. In the process they laid waste to their ships and outer colonies (23 fell in a matter of hours per dialogue).
The Founders took over Cardassia without force because Dukat gave them them the ability to do so.
Dukat formed an alliance with the Dominion, in effect recovering from the Klingons assault very fast, but also allowing the Dominion to place it's people in crucial political positions of the Cardassian empire and effectively ran the show behind curtains letting the Cardassians think they were in charge for a time before asserting their power base openly.

I agree that brute force wasn't always the answer on Trek ... but if we disregard entities with abilities (such as wormhole aliens and Q) from the equation and focus on brute force and numbers ... the Borg could likely purge the entire galaxy of non-borg if they wanted to with minimal losses.

 

[Marie1]

I'm pretty sure from what we heard in DS9 that those 2800 Dominion ships, if they had made it through, would quickly have taken over the Alpha Quadrant.

Given what the Prophets allowed Bajor to undergo, it could even be argued that they knew that the Dominion would devastate the AQ beyond its ability to rehabilitate, so they had to interfere... but thats stretching it.

 

[Tyberius]

^ Or, heck, why even bother with the 21st century? They could assimilate Earth of the 18th century. I dunno. The attempt to alter the future by stopping first contact with the Vulcans just seems like a really contrived way for the Borg to go about their attack. It works dramatically in the film, but it really makes no logical sense.

It make sense if they did not want to assimilate earth in the history. If instead they wanted to provoke earth to accelerate its technological advancement so that they, the borg could have more technology in the future to assimilate, then going to 21st century earth and allowing the Enterprise crew to follow makes sense.

 

[Deks]

I'm pretty sure from what we heard in DS9 that those 2800 Dominion ships, if they had made it through, would quickly have taken over the Alpha Quadrant.

The 'quick' part on the other hand doesn't make too much sense because it would take years to do that for the Federation alone (not the mention the Klingons or the Romulans) which is 8000Ly's large utilizing regular Warp drive ... effectively providing Federation member races home-worlds with enough time to build fleets of smaller (powerful) ships and mount a serious defense in orbit of every world.

The Feds have shipyards spread throughout their territory.
All 150 member planets are BOUND to have shipyards of their own as well (they had to have been capable of constructing Warp capable vessels in the first place after all before joining up the Federation).
And if the 150 member races don't have shipyards and adequate defenses around the planet (by the time the war began)... well then that's just idiotic writing to give the attacking party an advantage.
After the Borg incursions and various skirmishes with the Romulans during TNG, one would think the Feds would smarten up by then and do whatever they can to upgrade their existing defenses.
They were able to do so with DS9 and turned it into a fortress by season 4.
What's the excuse for not doing the same thing on existing systems in orbits of Federation member worlds exactly before the war?
Plot holes.

 

[Damask]

The Feds have shipyards spread throughout their territory.
All 150 member planets are BOUND to have shipyards of their own as well (they had to have been capable of constructing Warp capable vessels in the first place after all before joining up the Federation).

They may have being able to build a warp capable ship like Cochran did. No great shipyard in space but built on the ground. Once they joined the Federation they may have left all shipbuilding and protection to Starfleet.

 

[Deks]

The Feds have shipyards spread throughout their territory.
All 150 member planets are BOUND to have shipyards of their own as well (they had to have been capable of constructing Warp capable vessels in the first place after all before joining up the Federation).

They may have being able to build a warp capable ship like Cochran did. No great shipyard in space but built on the ground. Once they joined the Federation they may have left all shipbuilding and protection to Starfleet.

An assumption not supported by any on-screen evidence as a lot of Federation member races went into space before Humans and established colonies elsewhere.
Vulcans, Andorians and Tellarites (Enterprise reference) to note a few had their own fleets if anything and explored pretty good portions of space before joining up into the Coalition and later on formed the Federation ... and.

 

[Damask]

An assumption not supported by any on-screen evidence as a lot of Federation member races went into space before Humans and established colonies elsewhere.
Vulcans, Andorians and Tellarites (Enterprise reference) to note a few had their own fleets if anything and explored pretty good portions of space before joining up into the Coalition and later on formed the Federation ... and.

I'm not doubting that other races had fleets. I'm doubting whether every member race had shipyard in space which was your concern. Not all member races might want to have shipyards. Or they were based on the planet or moon bases.

Indeed when the Federation was formed and they encounter warp capable species who later join it's more than likely the new members would use Federation ships.

 

[Deks]

True that most designs were those of the Federation/SF origin (although it was clearly stated that internal technology is a blend of virtually all member races).
And I also agree that there is a possibility that some races would have shipyards on planets or moons ... but unlikely that some of them would not have shipyards at all.

During TNG, the Enterprise-D encountered minor races that were hesitant on establishing their own fleets or had little to no interest in space exploration.
On the other hand, this has yet to be established for any Federation members.

Every member race that agreed to enter the Federation also agreed that they are entering a pact of mutual protection and resource sharing.
Therefore it's only logical to theorize that every member race would help out towards these goals in whatever way they can.
Plus if you take a moment to take something else into consideration:
These races use Federation/SF ships and rely on them for protection.
Even if some member races wouldn't have their own shipyards in their systems, there is a good possibility that they would allow SF to establish their own.
Space is after all big.
A single solar system (such as our own) can literally house thousands of shipyards, starbases/other structures, and still leave enough space of astronomical proportions.

 

[Damask]

Every member race that agreed to enter the Federation also agreed that they are entering a pact of mutual protection and resource sharing.
Therefore it's only logical to theorize that every member race would help out towards these goals in whatever way they can.

I would argue that this amounts to joining Starfleet. Not building their own ships. Indeed it would make sense to put Federation ship yards into well protected areas and not necessarily in a planets solar system.

 

[Deks]

I would argue that this amounts to joining Starfleet.
Not building their own ships.

No on-screen evidence supports that.
The Federation is essentially an agreement between member planets for resource/technology/knowledge sharing, mutual cooperation and protecting each other from potential/guaranteed foes.
Member races aren't obligated to join SF if they don't want to, but one would come to a logical conclusion they would like to lend a hand in star-ship construction (which further ensures member races safety), sharing scientific knowledge/resources/technology, and mutual cooperation as stated above (which is essentially part of the deal).

Indeed it would make sense to put Federation ship yards into well protected areas and not necessarily in a planets solar system.

Then again, Utopia Planitia is located in orbit of Mars.
Earth also has the mush-room star-base and various other shipyards/drydocks/facilities in orbit.
Of course it would be ludicrous to think those are the only SF shipyard facilities, as others were referenced (not to mention it would be plain idiotic of the Feds to limit themselves in this fashion ... I think the writers eliminated more than enough intelligence from them already).
One would indeed think that the Federation has shipyards in not just member races planets orbits/solar systems, but also scattered throughout Federation territory ... some of which would be well hidden from prying eyes/not so friendly neighbors and well protected.
Also, the Human SOL system is/was considered well protected as well (Martok made a reference in DS9 after the Breen launched an attack on Earth [and lost most of those ships in the process with very few getting away] that not even the Klingon Empire ever dared to attempt such a dangerous feat).

 

[Aquehonga]

This whole thing was settled in the scaled-down simulation of a /Dominion War:

TERMINATOR 2: JUDGMENT DAY

When had only been around not yet 4 years & the Dominion wouldn't exist for over another 3!

And the “” (Arnold Schwarzenegger) BEAT the “Dominion” (Robert Patrick) in that simulation.

So hasta la vista to The Great vs Dominion War Debate(s).

NEXT DEBATE(s):

Harry Mudd vs Quark