Good catches. You got me.
I might also note that even NASA's most political ("space race") missions always had a major science component. It would be insane to send starships out into the galaxy and not make science one of the official priorities.
Why no THOLIAN instructions for Scotty?
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Good catches. You got me.
I might also note that even NASA's most political ("space race") missions always had a major science component. It would be insane to send starships out into the galaxy and not make science one of the official priorities.
And...
DECKER: We are now entering system L-374, Science Officer Masada reports the fourth planet seems to be breaking up. We are going to investigate.
Of course, the question then goes, what's the Chief Astrophysicist or the Assistant Biochemistry Officer - chopped liver?
VOY introduces "Chief Science Officer" as a title for Janeway's previous job, and this might be the full if rarely used job description of Spock as well: the boss and spokesvulcan of other Science Officers and Crew. A&A Lieutenant McGivers might thus warrant the title Science Officer, too...
...Or Lt. Dehner, since it sorta appears that Kirk calls her "[his] Science Officer" in the speech where he chides said officer for a failure to provide inconvenient truths about Gary Mitchell.
Timo Saloniemi
VOY introduces "Chief Science Officer" as a title for Janeway's previous job, and this might be the full if rarely used job description of Spock as well: the boss and spokesvulcan of other Science Officers and Crew. A&A Lieutenant McGivers might thus warrant the title Science Officer, too...
...Or Lt. Dehner, since it sorta appears that Kirk calls her "[his] Science Officer" in the speech where he chides said officer for a failure to provide inconvenient truths about Gary Mitchell.
Timo Saloniemi
He's calling Spock his Science Officer (a nugget I never noticed):
He might have been saying "my science officers' duty" in the plural, but it would be a unique reference not used elsewhere.
Or he's calling Dehner that. After all, Dehner is the Science Officer who failed in her duty of providing the dirt on Gary Mitchell. Spock, too, would fail in that duty if his response to "Go ahead" is to be considered the effort to perform that duty: Spock provides nothing, merely interrogating Dehner so that she can finally perform the Science Officer duty.
If OTOH we think that Kirk is playing apologist to Spock's earlier providing of unpleasant truths about Mitchell, that, too, is a fail: we get no hint that Spock would have provided "reports, observations or speculations" on Mitchell. The preceding talk is about Spock's callous attitude, not about his failings as a Science Officer or Mitchell Informant.
Timo Saloniemi
If OTOH we think that Kirk is playing apologist to Spock's earlier providing of unpleasant truths about Mitchell, that, too, is a fail: we get no hint that Spock would have provided "reports, observations or speculations" on Mitchell. The preceding talk is about Spock's callous attitude, not about his failings as a Science Officer or Mitchell Informant.
Timo Saloniemi
In fiction, it's Kirk telling McCoy that Spock is now captain, and should be treated as such, and reminding Spock that McCoy's advice can be useful.
Scotty and the rest can be relied on to obey the chain of command. And some of them may have known and served with Spock for longer than Kirk or McCoy.
Scotty and the rest can be relied on to obey the chain of command. And some of them may have known and served with Spock for longer than Kirk or McCoy.
The last orders scene was really a great performance by Nimoy.
The orders seemed to have no affect on McCoy though. While acknowledging one one hand that Spock was really upset by the Captain's death he's then accusing him half-heartedly of wanting the Captain's job and unnecessarily risking the ship.
Perhaps McCoy thinks about it later.
I think McCoys advise to hold a memorial for Kirk was wrong. It only made the situation worse. Instead of rally around the new "Captain" McCoy was outspokenly derailing any faith the crew had that Spock could get them out of it. I know McCoy wanted Kirk's death to be acknowledged but the morale of the crew was very important.
Scotty didn't need last orders because well he wasn't a maniac. He knew what he had to do even if Spock tested him severely.
The orders seemed to have no affect on McCoy though. While acknowledging one one hand that Spock was really upset by the Captain's death he's then accusing him half-heartedly of wanting the Captain's job and unnecessarily risking the ship.
Perhaps McCoy thinks about it later.
I think McCoys advise to hold a memorial for Kirk was wrong. It only made the situation worse. Instead of rally around the new "Captain" McCoy was outspokenly derailing any faith the crew had that Spock could get them out of it. I know McCoy wanted Kirk's death to be acknowledged but the morale of the crew was very important.
Scotty didn't need last orders because well he wasn't a maniac. He knew what he had to do even if Spock tested him severely.
You know, ripping TOS for Chekov's use during the first season strikes me as not entirely fair.
With hundreds of crew members, no doubt some would be just transferred in and others would have served with various other crew members, such as Spock, for years. Tina Lawton, for example, probably had very little previous experience with any other Enterprise crew members.
In the scene from "Where No Man Has Gone Before" referred to above:
So Dehner believes, probably from reading personnel files, that Spock and Mitchel served together for over 1.000 years and probably for over 2.000 years by "Where No Man Has Gone Before". If any of that service was before Kirk became Captain of the Enterprise it would probably, though not certainly, have been on the Enterprise under Captain Pike. And if all of that period of Mitchell serving with Spock was after Kirk became Captain of the Enterprise, Kirk should have been Captain of the Enterprise at least 1.000, and probably at least 2.000, years before "Where No Man Has Gone Before".
In "The Deadly Years":
So Sulu has served with Kirk for between 2.0 and about 2.999 years. It is possible that Kirk brought Sulu to the Enterprise with him, and it is possible that Sulu served on the Enterprise with Spock under Pike before Kirk took command.
In "Amok Time":
This implies that Kirk has known Spock for at least 1.000 years and probably for at least 2.000 years. It is uncertain whether that is since they first met or since they first worked closely together on the same ship. But Kirk would certainly notice if one of his senior subordinates took leave, so Kirk certainly took command of the Enterprise more than 1.00 years, and probably more than 2.000 years, before "Amok Time".
In "Journey to Babel" Amanda tells Spock:
This strongly implies that the last time Spock came to see Amanda and Sarek was less than 5.000 year earlier. Since Spock would have to take leave to do so, this implies that Kirk probably became Captain of the Enterprise less than 5.000 years before "Journey to Babel". So Kirk probably became captain of the Enterprise more than 1.000 years and probably more than 2.000 years before "Amok Time" and less than 5.000 years before "Journey to Babel".
And I don't think that there is any other canon chronological information about how long other characters may have served with Kirk and/or Spock before the first episode those character were seen in.
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Excellent analysis!
This suggests that the first year of Trek might have been the third year of the 5 year mission.
Or, if we count the animated series as the year after season 3, then perhaps WNMHGB is the end of Year 1, Season One is Year 2, Two is 3, Three is 4, and TAS is the last year of the five year mission.
Perhaps but I count the episodes with star logs beginning with 1 as year one and 2 as year two! So most of the third and final series has the fifth year adventures! TAS ruins that theory with it's logs starting at 7!!! 
JB
JB
Actually it has been pointed out that the original version of WNMHGB didn't have the opening titles sequence with Kirk mentioning the five year mission. So it is uncertain whether WNMHGB happens during the five year mission.
If WNMHGB doesn't happen during the five year mission, then Kirk could have commanded the Enterprise for days, weeks, months, or years before WNMHGB, and for even longer before the five year mission started.
I am also wary of assuming that TOS & TAS seasons correspond to years of Earth time, or other such assumptions.
Possible ways of ordering TOS episodes include:
1) by production date,
2) by broadcast date,
3) by stardate,
or
4) by seasons and by stardate within each season.
Methods 1,2, & 4 make the seasons separate chronologically, but method 3 means that the seasons overlap a bit chronologically. So assuming that TOS & TAS seasons are separate chronologically is burning one's bridges in regard to ordering episodes by stardate, since the seasons overlap when ordered by stardate. And there seems to be no justification for arbitrarily assuming that episodes cannot happen in stardate order.
Perhaps but I count the episodes with star logs beginning with 1 as year one and 2 as year two! So most of the third and final series has the fifth year adventures! TAS ruins that theory with it's logs starting at 7!!!
JB
Maybe. But I think that someone should make as few assumptions as possible when trying to construct a consistent Star Trek chronology that works well. It seems to me that the more assumptions one makes, the more chronological problems one has. Making assumptions doe not simplify the problem, but complicates it.
Maybe. Or possibly Kirk commanded the Enterprise for a while before the five year mission started. Or maybe TOS and TAs happen during two successive five year missions that ended years before TMP. Or possibly 1,000 stardates equal one short year of some type while the five year mission lasted five longer years of a different type. There are many possibilities.
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This makes sense with the ship and crew changes (using only TOS episodes):
- Show starts in United Earth Stardate system with UE Stardate 0000.0 = Jan. 1, 2263
- I have WNMHGB with a new Captain Kirk, just taking over from Pike on UE Stardate 1277.1 (Apr 10, 2264)
- Main Crew is Kirk, Spock, Piper, Scott, Mitchell, Kelso, Sulu, Alden, Smith (or Jones?)
- WNMHGB Episode ends around UE Stardate 1313.8.
- Enterprise put into Earth spacedock (~UE Stardate 1361.0) for a one year refit for conducting a 5YM under Federation Flag, and
- Starfleet moves under Federation taking over all Federation space command and control functions. Starfleet resets the Federation Stardate clock to 0000.0 on May 11, 2264.
- Starfleet issues new uniforms.
- Sulu goes back to Starfleet Academy for Command Training and Helm Operations.
- Kirk, Spock and Scott stay with ship during one year refit.
- McCoy is on 3 months mission on Capella Four sometime during the one year refit.
- Enterprise launched on 5YM on (around) one year anniversary of new Starfleet/Federation union on F Stardate 1000.0 (or so) or ~May 11, 2265.
- Main Crew is Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Scott, Sulu, Uhura, Rand, Riley, etc.
- Ist Episode, Mudd's Women (Mudd’s hearing on F Stardate 1329.2). [Alternate TAS 1st Episode, The Magicks of Megas-Tu (F Stardate 1254.4)]
- Squeeze in 5 years of missions into three Seasons.
- 5YM ends shortly after All Our Yesterdays (F Stardate 5943.9), returns to Earth spacedock on F Stardate 5999.9 or ~May 11, 2270.
- Maybe Enterprise goes on an extension to its 5YM or a few limited missions for TAS before its next refit.
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Was "Scott was a stud who wasn't mired in a protracted, fractious, xenophobic dispute with a coworker" offered as an answer yet?
That's so crazy it might just work!
I've long been a proponent of "rolling" stardates to reset, there's just no other way to explain how many years a mere 4 digit number can cover
However...if you're going to include TAS, what about those episodes which have a stardate in excess of 5999.9?
- The Pirates of Orion (6334.1)
- Bem (7403.6)
- How Sharper Than a Serpent's Tooth (6063.4)
- The Counter-Clock Incident (6770.3)
Firstly, I'm not a proponent of TAS as canon, but even if it was, hence my comment in the last bullet to address those four "extra" episodes:
- Maybe Enterprise goes on an extension to its 5YM or a few limited missions for TAS before its next refit.
(TrekCore is down again, so, I can't confirm the accuracy of the photo above, but it looks okay to me.)
I read your post twice before replying but obviously not closely enough, as I completely missed your final bullet point dealing with TAS. Oops!Firstly, I'm not a proponent of TAS as canon, but even if it was, hence my comment in the last bullet to address those four "extra" episodes:
The highest TAS Stardate is 7403.6, which is ~1.4 years after the proposed end of the official 5YM. This puts the date around Oct. 4, 2271. Add in Kirk's "no space time for 2.5 years" and Enterprise's 18 month refit, then TMP's early start is around April 4, 2274. Could the Starfleet HQ scenes reflect spring or early summer weather in San Francisco? Definitely not winter. Sure.
- Maybe Enterprise goes on an extension to its 5YM or a few limited missions for TAS before its next refit.
(TrekCore is down again, so, I can't confirm the accuracy of the photo above, but it looks okay to me.)
The only issue with Stardates being so proscriptive in relation to the passage of time is that "Bem" takes place on 7403 and TMP's earliest date on 7410.
Can 7 units really represent 2½ years?
This is why I tend towards the the theory of at least one missing digit in TOS stardates. For example:
- Bem - 17403
- TMP - 27410
Or just ignore TAS. Many do
Again, I usually focus only on TOS and ignore TAS, but I feel the same that TMP could be ~11.4 years after the series, say ~ Oct. 2281 (unless the Stardate clock was reset again during the period
). This gap provides plenty of time for 9 years of further adventures (books, cartoons, comics, etc.) prior to Kirk's 2.5 years flying a desk. Time enough to throw in a least one more 5YM for the TOS Enterprise, a refit to the Phase II Enterprise (if you like this concept), plus a couple of miscellaneous years with and without Kirk, then (another) refit into the TMP Enterprise. I'm convinced that 1000 Stardates was supposed to represent one Earth solar year (in universe, Starfleet HQ was originally governed by United Earth on Earth, and later, by the Federation Council also located on Earth, so, why not?). Roddenberry created the vague Stardate system and gave even vaguer instructions to writers on its use primarily to: 1. keep the exact year vague; and 2. enable the format for out-of-sequence broadcast television at the time. In the end, about 5000 Stardates were use in the three Seasons, with a jerky march from Stardate ~1300 to Stardate ~6000.
Interestingly, timekeeping within the episode was mostly normal Earth time units like seconds, minutes, hours, days, months and years. In my memory, only one episode (The Galileo Seven) used a Stardate deadline instead of a normal time unit such as two days, but even then this deadline was in reference to an official order from Galactic High Commissioner Ferris. Otherwise, Stardates were only used for official time keeping in Starfleet recordings/records.
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