Why no Saavik in ST6?

[Tallguy]

SmoothieX said:

I always got the impression that Valeris didn't intend for most of ST6 to happen. Her plan was for Kirk to come out swinging when Qo'noS One fired back at Enterprise. Then everyone gets what they want

So you're figuring Kirk and Chang blow each other up. The Klingon Chancellor along with Federation's flagship/crew are all gone. The two sides point fingers and the hostilities continue?

If that's the case, then why the fancy assassination plot of Gorkon?

No, I figure Kirk saves the day and gets the Enterprise out of there, but the two super powers are now at war. Kang needed something more / other than Q1 simply being destroyed, because Q1 was his wheels. Kang needed Gorkon dead but his ship intact. Mind you, Kang may have had his own ideas about the final disposition of Enterprise in this dastardly plot. But I don't think Kirk's head on a Klingon plate was Valeris' desired outcome. (Or part of Cartwright's plan. Nanclus and Kang again may have had thier own ideas.)

Not saying that V didn't go through with some bad stuff once Kirk gave up. But by that point he was giving up his life and perhaps his crew to buy peace with the bumpy-heads. Can't have that. I'm sure she was very sad about that. But agressive measures must be taken, right?

 

[Kryton]

Therin of Andor said:
You mean Xon helping Spock with pon farr on Genesis, or Xon being the traitor in ST VI?

Um...while the FORMER would have been an interesting variation on a theme, I was thinking more of the latter.

Those who knew about Phase II would be totally into it and those who had no idea, wouldn't have to wonder about "the Vulcan chick" and why she wasn't Saavik...it would just have been another young Vulcan to them.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Tallguy said:
Kang needed something more / other than Q1 simply being destroyed, because Q1 was his wheels. Kang needed Gorkon dead but his ship intact. Mind you, Kang may have had his own ideas about the final disposition of Enterprise in this dastardly plot.

Chang, not Kang. Kang (of TOS) was involved offscreen, but we didn't know that until "Flashback" (VOY).

 

[CoveTom]

Alot of this also depends on who you ask. Kirstie Alley will tell you that she turned it down not because she didn't want the role or because of Cheers, but because they didn't make her a resonable offer money-wise. Also, I don't believe anyone's ever said that she refused the cameo in "Cause and Effect," just that the schedule with Cheers couldn't be worked out.

 

[USS Valkyrie]

I thought that Robin Curtis made a FANTASTIC Saavik. She was very cold, but maintained her emotions very close to the surface.

 

[TiberiusK]

I never like Curtis that much, although I enjoyed Catrall and Alley. Not sure why.

There are so many different stories about Alley, but, from what I've read, she demanded a salary that was higher than many of the secondary characters for III. It was seen as outrageous, but her agent wouldn't budge. Trek people make it out that it was unreasonable, which Alley acts like they just stopped talking to her for no reason.

With both Shatner and Nimoy demanding equal salaries that was what, like half the film's budget togeter, they recast Saavik.

Personally, I would have liked for the traitor to be Saavik, if it had been established that she and David were lovers.

 

[cardinal biggles]

CoveTom said:
Also, I don't believe anyone's ever said that she refused the cameo in "Cause and Effect," just that the schedule with Cheers couldn't be worked out.

They were able to coordinate it so Kelsey Grammer could walk across the studio lot, put on a uniform, and shoot a brief scene, but couldn't coordinate the same with Kirstie Alley?

Sorry, but it just doesn't wash.

 

[TiberiusK]

cardinal biggles said:

CoveTom said:
Also, I don't believe anyone's ever said that she refused the cameo in "Cause and Effect," just that the schedule with Cheers couldn't be worked out.

They were able to coordinate it so Kelsey Grammer could walk across the studio lot, put on a uniform, and shoot a brief scene, but couldn't coordinate the same with Kirstie Alley?

Sorry, but it just doesn't wash.

Wasn't she very demanding and hostile on the set of Cheers. Not sure where I heard that...

 

[Therin of Andor]

National Enquirer?

 

[SmoothieX]

Therin of Andor said:
You mean Xon helping Spock with pon farr on Genesis

I think that's call the pon fudge.

 

[Broccoli]

SmoothieX said:

Therin of Andor said:
You mean Xon helping Spock with pon farr on Genesis

I think that's call the pon fudge.

Hmm...this would bring a whole new dynamic on why Krudge wanted Genesis so much and why he blew up his lover after she viewed the "Genesis footage."

 

[A beaker full of death]

USS Valkyrie said:
I thought that Robin Curtis made a FANTASTIC Saavik. She was very cold, but maintained her emotions very close to the surface.

She was entirely the wrong type to play a Vulcan.
Back when they hired a specific type to play Vulcans, that is.

 

[Tallguy]

Therin of Andor said:

Tallguy said:
Kang needed something more / other than Q1 simply being destroyed, because Q1 was his wheels. Kang needed Gorkon dead but his ship intact. Mind you, Kang may have had his own ideas about the final disposition of Enterprise in this dastardly plot.

Chang, not Kang. Kang (of TOS) was involved offscreen, but we didn't know that until "Flashback" (VOY).

Drat, I spent so much time looking up how to spell "Nanclus" that I missed that. Thanks. (Still have never seen Flashback.)

A beaker full of death said:
She was entirely the wrong type to play a Vulcan.
Back when they hired a specific type to play Vulcans, that is.

She was a terrific Vulcan (one of the few who didn't mistake "unemotional" with "angry" or "sullen"). I just thought she was a lousy Saavik.

 

[A beaker full of death]

Tallguy said:

A beaker full of death said:
She was entirely the wrong type to play a Vulcan.
Back when they hired a specific type to play Vulcans, that is.

She was a terrific Vulcan (one of the few who didn't mistake "unemotional" with "angry" or "sullen"). I just thought she was a lousy Saavik.

Unemotional? She damn near came in her pants when Spock's face was changing. She was emoting all over the place. Awful line delivery too.
As Jimmy Doohan put it, "she gave it her best, but Kirstie was much better cast."

 

[Tallguy]

A beaker full of death said:
As Jimmy Doohan put it, "she gave it her best, but Kirstie was much better cast."

But Jimmy had more fun gambling with Robin on the Trek cruises.

 

[Red Ranger]

People,

Frankly, it would have been more powerful if it were Saavik as the traitor, rather than a new character no one really had a stake in.

I always thought it would've been even more shocking if a member of the established crew, say, Chekov, was part of the conspiracy. What a swan song that would've been for Pavel Chekov!

As for who was the better Saavik, I think Robin Curtis looked more like a Vulcan, but Kirstie Alley is the better actress. Still, I recall she was emotional in a number of scenes in TWOK, so she's hardly the "typical" Vulcan some of you think she is.

Red Ranger

 

[Tallguy]

Red Ranger said:Frankly, it would have been more powerful if it were Saavik as the traitor, rather than a new character no one really had a stake in.

I always thought it would've been even more shocking if a member of the established crew, say, Chekov, was part of the conspiracy. What a swan song that would've been for Pavel Chekov!

Well, they did give us Starfleet personell that we knew, rather than the admiral of the week. That's not nothing.

Red Ranger said:As for who was the better Saavik, I think Robin Curtis looked more like a Vulcan, but Kirstie Alley is the better actress. Still, I recall she was emotional in a number of scenes in TWOK, so she's hardly the "typical" Vulcan some of you think she is.

I didn't think she was typical at all. In fact I still go with the "half-Romulan" backstory that Kirstie played to a t. Hence Robin=Good Vulcan, bad Saavik. Kirstie=not so typical Vulcan, AWESOME Saavik. Heh: Spoken: "I DON'T understand." Not spoken: "And it's pissing me off so bad I'm going to tear out your liver if you don't tell me something really soon."

 

[Red Ranger]

Tallguy said:

Red Ranger said:Frankly, it would have been more powerful if it were Saavik as the traitor, rather than a new character no one really had a stake in.

I always thought it would've been even more shocking if a member of the established crew, say, Chekov, was part of the conspiracy. What a swan song that would've been for Pavel Chekov!

Well, they did give us Starfleet personell that we knew, rather than the admiral of the week. That's not nothing.

Red Ranger said:As for who was the better Saavik, I think Robin Curtis looked more like a Vulcan, but Kirstie Alley is the better actress. Still, I recall she was emotional in a number of scenes in TWOK, so she's hardly the "typical" Vulcan some of you think she is.

I didn't think she was typical at all. In fact I still go with the "half-Romulan" backstory that Kirstie played to a t. Hence Robin=Good Vulcan, bad Saavik. Kirstie=not so typical Vulcan, AWESOME Saavik. Heh: Spoken: "I DON'T understand." Not spoken: "And it's pissing me off so bad I'm going to tear out your liver if you don't tell me something really soon."

Tallguy:

It's true Saavik was supposed to be half-Romulan, and in the Vonda McIntyre novelization, she runs with it quite well. However, I don't think Saavik's heritage was ever established on screen, which I think is a shame. Would have made her a more interesting character.

Does anyone know if there were any scenes from TWOK filmed then cut establishing Saavik's half-Romulan ancestry?

Incidentally, all the backstory of Saavik being rescued from a failed Romulan colony was just transferred to Tasha Yar's character's history, making it a failed human colony -- another example of Rodenberry recycling characters from his drawer of ideas.

Red Ranger

 

[SmoothieX]

Broccoli said:

SmoothieX said:

Therin of Andor said:
You mean Xon helping Spock with pon farr on Genesis

I think that's call the pon fudge.

Hmm...this would bring a whole new dynamic on why Krudge wanted Genesis so much and why he blew up his lover after she viewed the "Genesis footage."

Well you can't go around being a feared intergalactic renegade if everyone knows you like tender, sappy slash.

 

[nx1701g]

A beaker full of death said:

Tallguy said:

A beaker full of death said:
She was entirely the wrong type to play a Vulcan.
Back when they hired a specific type to play Vulcans, that is.

She was a terrific Vulcan (one of the few who didn't mistake "unemotional" with "angry" or "sullen"). I just thought she was a lousy Saavik.

Unemotional? She damn near came in her pants when Spock's face was changing. She was emoting all over the place. Awful line delivery too.
As Jimmy Doohan put it, "she gave it her best, but Kirstie was much better cast."

Wasn't it part of her backstory that Saavik was half Romulan? That would explain why she kept her emotions close.