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Why is there resistance to the idea of Starfleet being military?

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A military has typically been a way for one state to expand its power at the expense of another, participating in a struggle for resources that often leaves people innocent of any crime as victims
Militaries are typically employed to secure and protect territory from foreign agression, to expel foreign powers after invasions. Protect innocent civilians. To fulfill treaty obligations. Defend trade routes and insure open sea lanes. Historically explored the world.
 
Captain Samantha Carter was an astrophysicist in the US Air Force, with a PHD in Stargate.

He was on holiday with his son, he was not a Starfleet mission. Unless you telling me modern military personnel don't do fun things with their children?

No, say it ain't so!!!!!!

Dominion War + Betazed = Invasion of planet

Please use the multi-quote function as @1001001 previously advised (the "+ Quote" option at the bottom left of the posts that you're quoting). Look, it's easy.
 
I suggested a few pages ago that Starfleet might be best described as a "national security organisation" or I suppose a "federal security organisation" as this would give it a 'broader' remit than a conventional military, but would still cover it as a "non-civilian agency". The full text of the proposal is at

national security organisation

but to summarise a "federal security organisation" might deal with such varied topics as military security, economic, environmental and 'energy & natural resources' security, cyber-security, civil defense & emergency preparedness, and protection of population & infrastructure via (counter)intelligence & policing.

I think the above mesh fairly well with Starfleet diverse roles and would cover both "not civilian" and "not military" definitions given through the years.
 
He was referring to Starfleet as being a military even before there was any talk of a coup. For example, from Homefront:

So DS9 is apparently considered a military installation, according to the Federation President.

Or how about this from Sisko later on, after the power grid was knocked out:

There's obviously some sort of a military presence on Earth, if there are military targets. And Starfleet is the only armed presence we see on or near Earth in this storyline.

Also, even in Paradise Lost when the coup does become known, everyone refers to Leyton seizing power as being "military rule" or a "military dictatorship." The only term Leyton raises an objection to dictatorship.

Ds9 is a Bajoran station..they have a militia. Military targets does not necessarily mean 'belonging to the military' for example..a power station...anything that can directly lead to offence or defence, really.
In terms of Leyton...yes, it's an armed insurrection or coup, a military coup by virtue of being performed by an armed force...I don't think any of that directly places Starfleet as a military, whatever the behaviour of one nutjib with some gold braid.
 
I'm sure the Russians and Chinese would change their stances towards the US, if the US decided to call the Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines: "Candy Stripers". They would also sigh in relief and stand down if we called our ICBM's: "Candy Canes". :shifty:

This idea that all that matters is what the Federation considers Starfleet is non-sense. Others are going to set their agendas towards the Federation on how they see the culture, including its defensive arm.

Not the same thing...and I thought we do call them that? I saw the mario murals in the missile silo....I kid I kid.
As to your second point...actually, a bigger part is how they see their own culture. Klingons are not gonna sing songs about that time they took down a fearsome archaeologist, or some truly powerful cartographers. The Tribbles were probably a military to those guys too.
 
Negative. Just one idealistic Starship captain.
Actually THREE Starship captains have said as much, including Erica Hernandez and Jonathan Archer. Scotty twice makes reference to Starfleet's non-military nature in the Kelvinverse, as does Khan indirectly when he refers to Admiral Marcus' "Dream of a militarized Starfleet." And Admiral Gardner makes the explicit distinction between "Starfleet" and "the military" as well.
 
Voyager, or more precisely the Intrepid class is in fact a design built for combat performance.
Voyager is an exploration vessel like most other frontline Federation ships. It's just as "built for combat" as the Galaxy-class, except it's slightly better at it because it doesn't have all that extra shielding around the nursery.

Quite the opposite in fact. The Federation President on DS9 did refer to Starfleet as a military a few times in the Homefront/Paradise Lost story.
Nope. He uses the word "military" exactly ONCE, and then by way of comparing Earth to Deep Space Nine.

And I will point out, the two in Star Trek who have called Starfleet a military are the all-knowing omnipotent being (Q)...
Who also refers to humanity as a "dangerous savage child race" and refers to Guinan as "An imp." he may be omnipotent, but he's also about the farthest thing there is from a reliable source.

I always wondered how they planned on holding a Federation core world with 25,000 troops?
That was kind of my point earlier: actual military forces in the 24th century probably rely heavily on automated weapon systems that act as tremendous force multipliers, allowing a squad of four or five soldiers to do what in previous centuries used to take entire batallions.

Even in the 23rd century we see Kirk launch what is essentially a multi-kiloton grenade at a Gorn force attacking them from well out of visual range. I'd like to think that the effect of that little grenade was more flash and excitement than actual power, but I would be very surprised if this is the case; in "Omega Glory" we hear Ronald Tracy saying "We killed THOUSANDS and they still came!" meaning even standard side arms can give a small force unparalleled destructive power.

So those 25,000 Romulan troops wouldn't be the problem; the hundreds of pieces of field artillery, ground-to-orbit defense batteries, portable shield generators, cloaking/camouflage devices, plasma torpedo launchers, ground and aerial vehicles and god only knows how many automated weapon systems... THOSE would be a problem.

Call me biased, but many a time I've thought about the Systems Alliance from "Mass Effect" being a good idea of what a 24th century military would (and probably does) look like. Specialized weapon systems with specialized and diverse settings beyond "stun" and "kill" (e.g. incendiary, armor piercing, disabling, etc), personal forcefields as standard infantry kit, body armor capable of shrugging off close range detonations and high speed impacts, integrated sensors, battlefield network systems, rapid deployment systems (the Mako kicks ass like that) field artillery and fire support (the Mako ALSO kicks ass like that) and various types of heavy weaponry that make Insurrections "Worfzooka" look like an airsoft rifle. With the kind of technology we SHOULD be seeing in the 24th century, a specialized military force would pretty damn impressive. Trouble is, it would also be very VERY limited in its capabilities; they'd be HIGHLY over-specialized in planetary defense, area denial, siege warfare and mixed unit combat tactics, and very likely to find themselves out of their element in fighting an enemy using unconventional tactics or unfamiliar technology (or both). The Romulans, of course, wouldn't have this problem when going up against a known quantity like the Vulcan Security forces or whatever the Federation has for a land army.
 
Actually THREE Starship captains have said as much, including Erica Hernandez and Jonathan Archer.

Most folks see the Earth and Federation Starfleet's as two distinct entities with distinct operating parameters. I do believe the Earth Starfleet was considered a non-military entity, at least early on. And Archer's stance changed as Enterprise progressed.

Even in "The Expanse", the job of the NX-01 was essentially seek and find while giving the MACO's a ride for the destroy part of the mission. Early Starfleet likely had the idea that there wouldn't be a lot of ship-to-ship combat. So the standing infantry units were the "military".

But somewhere, in my opinion, there was a transition from non-military to military footing for Starfleet, and going forward from that point they were seen as the defensive arm of Earth/Coalition/Federation.

I can't ignore the Federation Starfleet's military roots. It was a combination of the Andorian Guard (military), the Vulcan High Command (military) and Earth Starfleet (exploration/psuedo-military).
 
Most folks see the Earth and Federation Starfleet's as two distinct entities with distinct operating parameters. I do believe the Earth Starfleet was considered a non-military entity, at least early on. And Archer's stance changed as Enterprise progressed.

Even in "The Expanse", the job of the NX-01 was essentially seek and find while giving the MACO's a ride for the destroy part of the mission. Early Starfleet likely had the idea that there wouldn't be a lot of ship-to-ship combat. So the standing infantry units were the "military".
The irony was when Enterprise was in the planning stages, the intent was to make Starfleet more militaristic than we see in the 24th century shows, indeed Reed and his security team were originally meant to be Starfleet Marines. But then Paramount stepped in and whined about the show not being "Star Trek" enough and we ended up with a Starfleet that was even less martial any of the shows. Hell, they didn't even have an alert system until mid-way season 2.

Interestingly enough, although Reed and his staff ended up becoming regular Starfleet Security, they were a bit more "badass" in the early episodes, with them essentially conducting a commando raid in The Andorian Incident. Then the MACOs were introduced and basically filled the role of "Starfleet Marine" anyway.
 
I always wondered how they planned on holding a Federation core world with 25,000 troops?
They would use their Spartan resolve!

Ds9 is a Bajoran station..they have a militia. Military targets does not necessarily mean 'belonging to the military' for example..a power station...anything that can directly lead to offence or defence, really.
In terms of Leyton...yes, it's an armed insurrection or coup, a military coup by virtue of being performed by an armed force...I don't think any of that directly places Starfleet as a military, whatever the behaviour of one nutjib with some gold braid.
He didn't say "military target" though. He called DS9 a "military installation."

Actually THREE Starship captains have said as much, including Erica Hernandez and Jonathan Archer. Scotty twice makes reference to Starfleet's non-military nature in the Kelvinverse, as does Khan indirectly when he refers to Admiral Marcus' "Dream of a militarized Starfleet." And Admiral Gardner makes the explicit distinction between "Starfleet" and "the military" as well.
Bill said
"Has anyone from the Federation government said that Starfleet isn't the military?"

Archer, Forrest, and Hernandez don't apply. I did go into more detail on how Enterprise treated this and my thoughts on it. If we include the new films, we would need to omit the rest and make the discussion solely about the Kelvin stuff. I'm not as well versed in it as I haven't seen all 3 and it's been a while, but so far the discussion has been primarily primey.

Voyager is an exploration vessel like most other frontline Federation ships. It's just as "built for combat" as the Galaxy-class, except it's slightly better at it because it doesn't have all that extra shielding around the nursery.
Cargile said "A military organization would not have sent Janeway into the Badlands with a pilot reactivated from a prison." and later said they would send a task force and not a science ship. But sending Voyager is not problematic at all as it's not a "science ship", and is "built for combat."

The Enterprise D is also not a "Science Vessel"
 
The only Starfleet ships which were specified as "science ships" are the Oberth and Nova classes. And the Nova has a combat variant anyway (or at least will in an alternate future).
 
Most folks see the Earth and Federation Starfleet's as two distinct entities with distinct operating parameters.
I know YOU do, but I don't think you speak for "most folks." I for one do not.

I do believe the Earth Starfleet was considered a non-military entity, at least early on. And Archer's stance changed as Enterprise progressed.
Archer's stance on INCLUDING MILITARY PERSONNEL changed as Enterprise progressed. That Starfleet eventually integrated former military into its ranks is now a matter of canon; Balthasar Eddison on USS Franklin is the most visible example, and that example comes from the same scene in which we are AGAIN told that Starfleet is not a military organization.

So the standing infantry units were the "military".
No, the standing infantry units -- namely the MACOs -- were the military. No need for quotes there, that's LITERALLY what they were.

I can't ignore the Federation Starfleet's military roots.
You don't have to. The Federation Starfleet's military roots are referenced openly and explicitly as being a major contributor to the fleet. As is the fact that Starfleet is not ITSELF a military organization. Much like NASA and many police departments, whose members (in some cases, key and founding members) come from a military background.

the Vulcan High Command (military)
A good example, because I'm pretty sure the Vulcan High Command doesn't consider itself to be a military organization either. I believe they more directly -- if not explicitly -- fit Sherlock Holmes' theory of a space-based "national security agency." This is mainly because the Vulcan High Command's ships and personnel double as diplomats, advisors, doctors, consultants, spies, assassins, police officers, investigators, etc. I think the VHC probably traces its roots to the Vulcan equivalent of the FBI more than anything else, integrating the Vulcan Science Directorate and other agencies who have a stake in space exploration.

It's also pretty clear that the High Command didn't survive the Syrannite reforms, considering how hard it was for T'pel to pull together a decent sized fleet just a couple of months after the revolution.
 
It's also pretty clear that the High Command didn't survive the Syrannite reforms, considering how hard it was for T'pel to pull together a decent sized fleet just a couple of months after the revolution.

You mean with all the starships and personnel they had? I imagine it wouldn't be very hard.
 
I think the VHC probably traces its roots to the Vulcan equivalent of the FBI more than anything else, integrating the Vulcan Science Directorate and other agencies who have a stake in space exploration.
The Vulcan High Command originally started as Vulcan's exploration service. From The Forge:
AREV: At one time, the High Command was only responsible for the exploration of space. But that's changed.
ARCHER: I've been told Vulcans have never been explorers.
AREV: I think you've been told many things about us that aren't true.
By the 22nd century the High Command is undeniably Vulcan's military, indeed Memory Alpha even describes it as such.
It's also pretty clear that the High Command didn't survive the Syrannite reforms, considering how hard it was for T'pel to pull together a decent sized fleet just a couple of months after the revolution.
There is a reference on Voyager indicating the High Command still exists in the 24th century.
 
Bill said
"Has anyone from the Federation government said that Starfleet isn't the military?"
And YOU said "Negative. Just one idealistic Starship captain" which is what I was responding to.

It wasn't just one idealistic starship captain. It was three captains, an engineer, and an Admiral.

Cargile said
And then wormhole said "Voyager, or more precisely the Intrepid class is in fact a design built for combat performance" which is hat I was responding to.

But it isn't. It's built for scientific exploration and research like any other Starfleet vessel. It's built with the CAPACITY to engage in combat, but that is not its primary function.

The Enterprise D is also not a "Science Vessel"
The Enterprise D is a "ship of peace" according to Data, Guinan and Picard. it is also an "exceptional weapon" and "the strongest ship in the Federation" according to Worf and the Borg.

Starfleet is versatile like that.
 
You mean with all the starships and personnel they had? I imagine it wouldn't be very hard.
You'd be surprised:

T'POL: Minister T'Pau is dispatching twenty three vessels.
ARCHER: That's all?
T'POL: The High Command has been disbanded. Many of our ships no longer have full crew compliments.​

So okay, I got her name wrong. Also, it turns out the High Command really DIDN'T survive the reforms and was actually completely disbanded before it ever had a chance to join Starfleet.
 
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