Why is there resistance to the idea of Starfleet being military?

[Prax]

I think both sides wish to convince the other, so that, from a certain standpoint...it becomes true. It also helps inform production. You get enough fans on the military bandwagon, maybe we get a show or book dripping in Maço, HooRah and big bangs. You get enough go the other way, we get a show or book dripping with character based plot and discussing the human condition.
I get my HooRah kicks watching Killjoys....The Warrant is All.

Ouch! When people see Starfleet as a military, they are (presumably) not thinking this:

or this

but this:

and this:

and often this:

Military or no, they are a spacy navy

Bursting the bubble on whether the question matters or actually has any real potential insight to offer regarding the message or purpose of the show?

These threads are fun, engaging, and often educational. And this one has been quite civil imo. I've seen much more hostile, never ending temporal-loop threads about the Star Wars Prequels, JJ Trek, or even Voyager.

 

[BillJ]

And what do the other civilizations think of Starfleet and its role?

We know Klingons see Starfleet as the military. From designating the Enterprise as a "Federation battle cruiser" (Star Trek III: The Search for Spock), to Chang's "all warriors are cold warriors" (Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country).

 

[Nerys Myk]

Minor details. A military organization would have a task force to deal with the Marquis, not a scientist or whatever Janeway claimed to be.

Why would a science background disqualify Janeway from this mission? She's the CO of a Starfleet vessel not the Science Officer.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Contrary to the implication of the name, the US National Security Agency isn't this (it should properly be called the National Intelligence Agency or the National Surveilance Agency if you wish to preserve the initials). However, I think it is a good model for Starfleet's legal identity, if not necessarily a full explanation of it's practical identity.

When my father was in the USAF he was part of the Security Service, which was actually involved in electronic surveillance and worked with the NSA. It's gone through a few name changes since then: the Electronic Security Command, the Air Force Intelligence Command, Air Intelligence Agency, the Air Force Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance Agency
Some closer to the actual job.
So I think there would be people in Starfleet who work in an intelligence gathering capacity who work with the UFP's "civilian" intelligence agencies. But it wouldn't be all of Starfleet.

 

[The Wormhole]

Minor details. A military organization would have a task force to deal with the Marquis, not a scientist or whatever Janeway claimed to be.

If they were sending Janeway into the Badlands to conduct a scientific survey, it would have made more sense.

You want to flush out the Marquis, use a ship more suited for combat and Intel gathering, commanded by someone with that type of experience.

Unless you are an incompetent military organization with poor assets.

Voyager, or more precisely the Intrepid class is in fact a design built for combat performance. While Janeway's background is in the sciences department, we know she had front-line infantry experience in the Cardassian war and throughout the series she clearly had a decent grasp on starship combat and tactics.

The Xendi prototype literally came out of FTL in orbit of the planet to fire a beam on it. The full on weapon did similar. Earth's defense systems appear not to be in place yet, nor does Earth even have a lot of the 23rd and 24th century technologies that would make a planetary defense system viable. (shield systems, photon torpedoes, tractor beams, and many other technologies) Also Earth had never even heard of this species before, nor this form of FTL travel.

What we saw the Xindi use wasn't really an FTL drive, but rather they utilized subspace vortexes to get them around space. When they did use FTL drives, they used ordinary warp drive.

Has anyone from the Federation government said that Starfleet isn't the military?

Quite the opposite in fact. The Federation President on DS9 did refer to Starfleet as a military a few times in the Homefront/Paradise Lost story. And I will point out, the two in Star Trek who have called Starfleet a military are the all-knowing omnipotent being (Q) and the head of the Federation itself. But of course, Picard, Archer, Admiral Forrest and Kelvin Scotty are way more trustworthy and reliable sources of information.

 

[jaime]

Voyager, or more precisely the Intrepid class is in fact a design built for combat performance. While Janeway's background is in the sciences department, we know she had front-line infantry experience in the Cardassian war and throughout the series she clearly had a decent grasp on starship combat and tactics.

What we saw the Xindi use wasn't really an FTL drive, but rather they utilized subspace vortexes to get them around space. When they did use FTL drives, they used ordinary warp drive.

Quite the opposite in fact. The Federation President on DS9 did refer to Starfleet as a military a few times in the Homefront/Paradise Lost story. And I will point out, the two in Star Trek who have called Starfleet a military are the all-knowing omnipotent being (Q) and the head of the Federation itself. But of course, Picard, Archer, Admiral Forrest and Kelvin Scotty are way more trustworthy and reliable sources of information.

They are series regulars....and Q has always been baiting humans about its savage side, from his very beginning. He calls Worf all sorts of things, we don't take those as a an actual description of the Klingon species. The Federation president in those episodes was in danger of an armed coup...military as a simple word, not a designation no?
Series regulars, protagonists, heroes...in the type of show Trek is...should always be considered honest and correct unless directly shown to be otherwise. They are not unreliable narrators.

 

[jaime]

We know Klingons see Starfleet as the military. From designating the Enterprise as a "Federation battle cruiser" (Star Trek III: The Search for Spock), to Chang's "all warriors are cold warriors" (Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country).

I know humans and all life in the universe to be inferior to Daleks in Doctor Who, they keep saying so....

 

[BillJ]

I know humans and all life in the universe to be inferior to Daleks in Doctor Who, they keep saying so....

I'm sure the Russians and Chinese would change their stances towards the US, if the US decided to call the Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines: "Candy Stripers". They would also sigh in relief and stand down if we called our ICBM's: "Candy Canes".

This idea that all that matters is what the Federation considers Starfleet is non-sense. Others are going to set their agendas towards the Federation on how they see the culture, including its defensive arm.

 

[fireproof78]

Also, how the Federation responds to other powers "battlecruisers." I immediately think of TNG and
"Angel One" and the fact that the moment a Romulan battlecruiser was seen near the Neural Zone, the Enterprise was called upon to be sent there as well.

 

[The Wormhole]

The Federation president in those episodes was in danger of an armed coup...military as a simple word, not a designation no?

He was referring to Starfleet as being a military even before there was any talk of a coup. For example, from Homefront:

LEYTON: Captain Sisko has several suggestions on how to combat Dominion infiltration. I think you'll find them very interesting.
JARESH-INYO: (reads the PADD) Hmm. I understand the need for increased security, but blood screenings? Phaser sweeps?
SISKO: They've proven very effective on Deep Space Nine.
JARESH-INYO: I'm sure they have. But I hope you'll keep in mind that this is Earth, and not a military installation.

So DS9 is apparently considered a military installation, according to the Federation President.

Or how about this from Sisko later on, after the power grid was knocked out:

SISKO: Sir, the thought of filling the streets with armed troops is as disturbing to me as it is to you, but not as disturbing as the thought of a Jem'Hadar army landing on Earth without opposition. The Jem'Hadar are the most brutal and efficient soldiers I've ever encountered. They don't care about the conventions of war or protecting civilians. They will not limit themselves to military targets. They'll be waging the kind of war that Earth hasn't seen since the founding of the Federation.

There's obviously some sort of a military presence on Earth, if there are military targets. And Starfleet is the only armed presence we see on or near Earth in this storyline.

Also, even in Paradise Lost when the coup does become known, everyone refers to Leyton seizing power as being "military rule" or a "military dictatorship." The only term Leyton raises an objection to dictatorship.

 

[BillJ]

Also, the Federation will strike first if the opportunity presents itself, as we saw in "Chain of Command" regarding the Cardassians.

 

[Prax]

"They'll be waging the kind of war that Earth hasn't seen since the founding of the Federation."

This may be a little off topic, but I like how that fits with Enterprise. The Xindi attack killed many civilians and is similar to the Breen attack that came in DS9(at the behest of the Dominion?) And it doesn't appear Earth suffered any such assaults on its population in the 200 intervening years.

You mentioned Archer and Forest earlier. I think Enterprise shows a nice evolution from starry eyed "optimism!" to a more grounded view on Starfleets function, especially in Archer. He goes out to be an explorer only, and Earth appears to have a separate, distinct military. He meets aliens and says "Hi! We're from Earth! It's in the Sol System. Here's a map showing how to get there."

Then throughout the series there are many episodes dealing with how impractical this is. And by season 4, Archer does almost no exploration. He walks around (and even visits other places) with 2 heavily armed MACOs at his side. And he has/recommends the NX-02 Columbia fitted with all sorts of special weapons and armor upgrades.

And from then on Starfleet seems to be Earth's cosmic defense force. They are still explorers. They are still peacemakers, but they are also defenders, and their frontiers are ever growing.

 

[fireproof78]

^^and the threats are ever growing.

 

[INACTIVEUSS Einstein]

I do think Starfleet is a military.

But I also think it is a research organization like NASA.

And I think that latter ideal represents it's primary role, in an ideal world.

An organization which may have become a military in the midst of Romulan and Klingon aggression, but was principally founded for researching the cosmos, contacting new civilizations, and exploring on behalf of a multi-species democracy that wants to end inter-state violence and domestic exploitation through mutual understanding.

I also think that the distinction is important, even if it seems semantic. The connotations of a military are not, in history, just about defense. A military has typically been a way for one state to expand its power at the expense of another, participating in a struggle for resources that often leaves people innocent of any crime as victims. The Federation cannot ignore the existential threat posed by other powers who do not see the galaxy this way, and so has to operate like a military due to the Hobbsian dilemma, but all its staff are cross trained in both NASA-like and Navy-like learning. People in Starfleet and the Federation have at times lapsed into 20th century thinking, seeing Starfleet as primarily a way of enhancing the Federation's power at the expense of the people of another civilization - Admiral Marcus, Admiral Cartwright, etc - but if the Federation lost sight of the ideals upon which it was founded, I think it would then be no different from say the Cardassian Union, except by degree.

So yeah, Starfleet is a military in my opinion, but unlike any we have on Earth today - where some Navy today might conduct a research expedition to the Antarctic as PR - Starfleet genuinely exists to place humanitarian concerns and research at the forefront - to act this way in times of peace, and to ensure times of peace are as frequent as possible.

It's not Battlestar Galactica. It's more like International Rescue from Thunderbirds.

 

[Nyotarules]

Minor details. A military organization would have a task force to deal with the Marquis, not a scientist or whatever Janeway claimed to be.

Captain Samantha Carter was an astrophysicist in the US Air Force, with a PHD in Stargate.

 

[Nyotarules]

If there were a show about the modern US Navy, you'd never see an episode like "Explorers" where Sisko decides to build an ancient Bajoran solar-sailor and when asked why not just use computer models his response is "because it'll be fun.

He was on holiday with his son, he was not on a Starfleet mission. Unless you telling me modern military personnel don't do fun things with their children?

 

[Nyotarules]

The question is a petty one because:

1. Obviously they are a military, except when they're not, based on the needs of the story.
2. It's a semantic argument over what is the definition of "military"?
3. Starfleet isn't real.

No, say it ain't so!!!!!!

 

[Nyotarules]

Which is why nobody ever invades anybody else's homeworld.

Dominion War + Betazed = Invasion of planet

 

[1001001]

Romulus attempted to invade Vulcan too.

 

[BillJ]

Romulus attempted to invade Vulcan too.

I always wondered how they planned on holding a Federation core world with 25,000 troops?