Why is there resistance to the idea of Starfleet being military?

[Crazy Eddie]

Five times, to be exact. But more to the point, it becomes easier to write those five times off when you take into account they are fallible mortals...

If "they are fallible" is an excuse to "write off" those lines then you can just as easily write off all the times they referred to themselves as "soldiers" or emphasized their military role.

You either try to make sense of what they actually say or you just make up whatever you want to fit your preconceptions.

That's as nice as it was the first five million times you posted it in the other thread. Of course, it misses the point, if Starfleet is meant to be non-military, why has the franchise repeatedly over the course of the fifty years of its existence treated it like a military, with military terms, practices, jargon. In fact Starfleet is a military in every way that matters other than the fact that everyone says otherwise.

That's kind of the point. They ACT like a military in some important ways, but unlike one in other ways. What's most relevant is that they SAY they aren't, and all things being equal, there are no canonical or logical reasons to dispute what they say. There are plenty of ideological and political reasons, but the Federation doesn't hold to the same ideological positions we do and those are unlikely to be valid in-universe.

In fact, the quoted passage in the writers guide describes Starfleet completely accurately. There's no reason to "write off" anything at all, the organization's nature and the nuances of meaning are all described right there. To wit: Starfleet is not a military organization, it is a scientific research and diplomatic body. Although some of its duties include military missions, the purpose of the Enterprise -- as with ALL Starfleet vessels -- is to expand the body of human knowledge.

Actions speak louder than words.

"Military" is defined by words, specifically words written into laws and declarations, NOT, as it were, by actions.

 

[The Wormhole]

They ACT like a military

If an organization acts like the military, it is the military.

 

[Prax]

Then according to Picard, Engineering and Security are more conducive to command track opportunity, than astrophysics. When Picard found himself in a "tedious job" in astrophysics, he immediately set out to get back into Command. The way to get that opportunity(as he saw it) was in Engineering or Security.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

If an organization acts like the military, it is the military.

Unless it's not. Stateless militias, mercenaries, terrorist organizations and resistance groups are not considered to be "military" either. Even police departments are not considered to be part of the military even when they deliberately participate in warfare.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Then according to Picard, Engineering and Security are more conducive to command track opportunity, than astrophysics.

Not necessarily. His "or something that might lead to a path to command" implies an internal transfer in the science division to something more likely to get a field assignment (e.g. geology or biology). The reason Riker doesn't think this is realistic is because Alternate Picard is too much of a coward to take a field assignment.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

The rest of your post is just puerile nonsense and I've entirely lost sight of whatever point you think you're trying to make.

Of course it is puerile nonsense. It contains your nonsensical quotes about knights on horseback, flying horses and glorified samurai vagabonds. Quoted verbatim.

But if you're gonna keep moving the goalposts and act like you don't understand the point I'm making, then there's no reason continuing, is there? Fair enough, conversation over.

 

[GabyBee]

If we are expected to believe Starfleet is non-military, we need to be shown it being non-military as opposed to being told this obviously military outfit isn't military

And that's the point. In order to justify Starfleet being the military, one needs to outright ignore scores of evidence that un-ambiguously states otherwise.

Or, to put another way... Starfleet isn't the military; you just want it to be.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Of course it is puerile nonsense.

Well, at least you admit it.

 

[The Wormhole]

In order to justify Starfleet being the military, one needs to outright ignore scores of evidence that un-ambiguously states otherwise.

"Scores of evidence"? A score means twenty, as you said scores, that's a minimum of forty, two score's worth. So far, the evidence against Starfleet being military is five lines saying so and that writer's guide excerpt you're so fond of posting. So that's six bits of evidence supporting Starfleet being non-military. You may post the other 34 at your leisure to attain the bare minimum of the definition of "scores."

Or, to put another way... Starfleet isn't the military; you just want it to be.

Oh, totally. If something looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck, tastes like a duck, I'm totally the one who goes out of my way to convince people it's a car.

 

[Mojochi]

Or, to put another way... Starfleet isn't the military; you just want it to be.

Actually, I wish it wasn't. I wish that what they were saying, in the odd instances where they say it isn't, were appreciably the case, but how can any institution that engages in military functions, such as wars, be anything BUT a military? In that sense, we're just arguing about what criteria should fit the term's definition

They DO militant things, by all rights, all the same types of things any military we've ever seen does, border patrol, espionage, infiltration, combat, arms races. About the only thing that militaries historically do that we HAVEN'T seen Starfleet do is conquer. Now that may make them an evolved type of fictional futuristic utopian military, but it's still a military imho, regardless of the possibility that they may be in denial about it, when they reference themselves

 

[Kor]

If an organization acts like the military, it is the military.

There are some whack-o, ragtag armed groups out in the boonies that act like the military, without any kind of official sanction or recognition. I wouldn't go so far as to say they are militaries.

Kor

 

[BillJ]

There are some whack-o, ragtag armed groups out in the boonies that act like the military, without any kind of official sanction or recognition. I wouldn't go so far as to say they are militaries.

Kor

But Starfleet is sanctioned and charged with defending the Federation from foreign hostiles.

 

[The Wormhole]

Not to mention one of the whacko, ragtag armed groups that act in defense of the Federation without official sanction or recognition, do so through an interpretation of a section of the Starfleet charter.

 

[GabyBee]

But Starfleet is sanctioned and charged with defending the Federation from foreign hostiles.

That does not necessarily make it a military. It makes it... Starfleet.

 

[BillJ]

That does not necessarily make it a military. It makes it... Starfleet.

Maybe I'm simple, but the fact it is structured like the military and is assigned military functions by the state makes it a military to me. YMMV.

 

[GabyBee]

But that's kind of the entire issue in the first place. Starfleet should just be Starfleet, rather than constantly trying to make it fit into a real world 21st Century definition.

Does Starfleet engage in combat operations in defense of the United Federation of Planets? Yes. Is Starfleet's primary purpose to explore space? Yes. Both of these things are true. Whether it makes Starfleet a military or not is kind of a moot topic overall. Starfleet is just Starfleet.

 

[BillJ]

Does Starfleet engage in combat operations in defense of the United Federation of Planets? Yes. Is Starfleet's primary purpose to explore space? Yes. Both of these things are true. Whether it makes Starfleet a military or not is kind of a moot topic overall. Starfleet is just Starfleet.

But when the rubber hits the road, they are going to go fight. There isn't an instance where a science experiment is more important than the defense of the Federation. They train to defend the Federation. They build massive amounts of support and infrastructure to defend the Federation.

One is clearly more important in the pecking order when it comes right down to it.

 

[The Wormhole]

That does not necessarily make it a military. It makes it... Starfleet.

Then what is a military, according to you? Every time someone points out Starfleet's militaristic attributes, which has included defense of the Federation up to and including authorization to commit genocide, you say "that isn't necessarily military." What the hell else do you call an organization that has directives authorizing it to commit genocide in the name of self-defense, if not a military?

Seriously, if an armed uniform service with rank structure, martial discipline, and is responsible for the defense of its nation state and fighting its wars isn't the military, what is it?

Starfleet should just be Starfleet, rather than constantly trying to make it fit into a real world 21st Century definition.

Star Trek is a show made by 20th century people for 20th century audiences. It's easier to hook those audiences if they can relate to Starfleet and identify with it by their standards and knowledge of the world. Reinventing the wheel by making Starfleet some sort of vague futuristic concept than doesn't apply to modern definitions doesn't do that. Making it a naval analogue in space does and did, otherwise we wouldn't have had TOS.

 

[BillJ]

They have an awful lot of firepower as shown in "The Wounded". A Nebula class starship demolishes a Cardassian warship with one salvo, even though the Cardassian ship had the prefix code to control the shields of the Phoenix.

If I'm an outsider looking in, there's no way I could classify Starfleet as anything other than a military.

DATA: The warship is three hundred thousand kilometres from the Phoenix. It is opening fire. The Phoenix has taken a direct hit. The Phoenix is beginning evasive manoeuvres. It has positioned itself outside the weapons range of the opposing ship. The Phoenix has powered up both phasers and photon torpedoes. The Phoenix is firing photon torpedoes.
(and one of the lights on the screen goes out)
MACET: He has destroyed our warship.
PICARD: Does the supply ship have any weapons?
MACET: Very limited. Certainly not enough to defeat a Nebula class starship.
DATA: Sir, the Phoenix is firing on the
(another light goes out)
MACET: The warship carried a crew of six hundred, the supply ship, fifty.
PICARD: Mister Data estimated time to intercept with the Phoenix.
DATA: At our present speed of warp four, sixteen hours, forty four minutes.
PICARD: Ensign, increase to warp nine.

The Klingons refer to the Enterprise as a Federation battle cruiser. The Federation can call Starfleet candy stripers, but I'm sure their enemies see them exactly for what they are. The defense arm of the Federation. The military.

 

[The Wormhole]

The Federation can call Starfleet candy stripers, but I'm sure their enemies see them exactly for what they are. The defense arm of the Federation. The military.

This actually is played with in the novels quite a bit, with alien characters commenting "Starfleet isn't military" and then another alien adds "only they believe that."