Why is there resistance to the idea of Starfleet being military?

[Tenacity]

I attribute the insistence that Starfleet is a military to be our 21st century lack of imagination and unevolved ideas of what Starfleet is in the 24th century.

Okay, then what do you attribute the insistence that Starfleet isn't a military, despite it possessing all the attributes of a military? Especially if you consider what militaries have done in centuries past.

It just sounds like a name game.

I still can't see Starfleet as a civilian contractor, or a civilian government agency, Starfleet isn't a civilian police force, Starfleet isn't the armed mercenaries of the British East India Company.

I think a large part of not wanting Starfleet to be a military stems from a personal disapproval of the military in general and not wanting Starfleet to be something that is personally disapproved of.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

It just sounds like a name game.

The name game. Starfleet! Starfleet, Starfleet
Bo-bar-fleet, bo-na-na-far-fleet
Fo-far-fleet, fee fi mo-mar-fleet, Starfleet!

 

[WARLOCK1965]

I have to agree on this one.

Starfleet acts like a military. Court martials, negotiate treaties, ranks and salutes, making decisions about moving colonists...

In a way it would be better for Starfleet to classify themselves as a military than civilian service with military authority. Somehow it doesn't sound right....


Starfleet as a police force..... A military with police powers, a police force with military powers...does that sound familiar? lol

Yes it was used for Korean War. But it a way from going to World War 3 at the time and I think Vietnam War was that way at the beginning but later there was no way to deny that a real war was going on

 

[Sibyl]

My own headcanon not seen DS9 or most of Voyager and none of Enterprise:

Starfleet IS a military organization (it has all the traits and is modeled after our own current Navy), but its primary mission is scientific exploration, not defense (TOS-TNG), though it is able to act in that capacity if need be. It also has the ability to change its primary mission in event that it needs to act as defense.

I've seen no evidence that Starfleet is a police force for individual planets nor societies. I believe they leave most of that to local law enforcement.

 

[Ithekro]

Starfleet is an armed exploration and scientific orginization. They perform defense operation for the Federation because they tend to be on the scene already and would be able to respond before any of the Federation member's defensive orginations like the Andorian Imperial Guard or Vulcan High Command. They are still not the military, they are just the first ships at the problem already, and the Federation has gotten so use to that they just leave things to Starfleet most of the time.

In wartime, the feeling I get is that Starfleet is drafted like a militia into the Federation's military command structure.

 

[fireproof78]

Okay, then what do you attribute the insistence that Starfleet isn't a military, despite it possessing all the attributes of a military? Especially if you consider what militaries have done in centuries past.

It just sounds like a name game.

I still can't see Starfleet as a civilian contractor, or a civilian government agency, Starfleet isn't a civilian police force, Starfleet isn't the armed mercenaries of the British East India Company.

I think a large part of not wanting Starfleet to be a military stems from a personal disapproval of the military in general and not wanting Starfleet to be something that is personally disapproved of.

I tend to agree, and I also think that Starfleet serves in both roles, allowing for a fairly fluid flexibility in a mission.

 

[JesseJK]

The problem with the 'starfleet is NOT the military' line is that it so clearly IS in so many ways:

1. The organization is organized along military lines with a naval rank structure
2. The organization fights the Federations wars and also acts as a law enforcement organ
3. There is a top to bottom military-style chain of command, a JAG corps, courts martial, and all manner of military trappings.
4. The members wear uniforms, and the uniforms clearly denote rank

Basically, a rose by any other name, and all that.

All the above aside, I will postulate that starfleet is the Federation's military, but also MUCH MORE. There is the exploration facet to it, the science facets, space medicine, first contact missions, and quite frankly, the training starfleet officers receive for the express purpose of 'thinking outside the box' and dealing with not just the unknown, but the unknowable.

A typical military organization would not have been able to cope with V'ger, or the Borg, or being propelled back in time or beyond the known edges of the universe, or solved the communications conundrum with the Children of Tama. Starfleet can and does do all of those things. So is starfleet 'The Military?' No. Is it organized on military lines and serve a military function when needed? You betcha- ask the Cardassians. Starfleet is starfleet- as unique an organization as we've seen in sci-fi. It exists to serve and protect, to seek out new life and new civilizations, and boldly go where no one has gone before, upholding the founding principles of the UFP along the way. It's really the embodiment of the Federation ideal: that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

Upon reading this what comes to mind is how many spin-off shows are spawned by "branches" of their originating shows. How many times has it been referred to that star fleet has "sent a science team" to whatever they encountered. It would be very fulfilling to watch a series based on such a science team. But we all know that such a show would not garner a huge following. I often have to yield to the reality that Star Trek's success has much to owe to it not being solely a science fiction, but also an action series.

 

[WARLOCK1965]

My own headcanon not seen DS9 or most of Voyager and none of Enterprise:

Starfleet IS a military organization (it has all the traits and is modeled after our own current Navy), but its primary mission is scientific exploration, not defense (TOS-TNG), though it is able to act in that capacity if need be. It also has the ability to change its primary mission in event that it needs to act as defense.

I've seen no evidence that Starfleet is a police force for individual planets nor societies. I believe they leave most of that to local law enforcement.

That is the Prime Directive

 

[Sibyl]

The Prime Directive has no relevance for Federation colonies nor member planets.

 

[WARLOCK1965]

The Prime Directive has no relevance for Federation colonies nor member planets.

But is the rule that starship captain's such obey and the colonies get help and operate under colonization rule until membership for in planetary rules for dealing with other planets and their laws

 

[Sibyl]

The Prime Directive (as I understand it; I'm not sure if any of our heroes truly did), has to do with interfering in developing cultures that are not yet brought up to par with the Federation in technology nor societal norms. Of course the Prime Directive would hold true for colonization, but not for established colonies. At the same time, it would be assumed that any planet that's actually a member of the Federation would have access to the same technology as the rest of the Federation. We've already seen that there are cultural tests that, if not met, result in denial of acceptance into the alliance.

 

[suarezguy]

I have to admit, I'm always perplexed by the people who say Starfleet is primarily science and exploration and defense is secondary. Do people really believe that with a Borg ship assimilating Federation worlds or a Dominion fleet conquering its way towards Earth, Starfleet's attitude is going to be "not dealing with that today, we got exploring to do."?

Situations vary and it seems that with those examples you're going with a strawman. Yeah, with something major like that you do need to just focus on defense for survival. But not all conflicts are that focusing and all-consuming; we've also seen that parts of Starfleet were engaged in combat against the Cardassians in a region of space while other parts stayed clear not only of that region but also didn't seem highly concerned about security or becoming more martial and even didn't act like the Federation was at war at all.

i never implied that it was not important. But their mandate is mainly exploration or was i mistaken with the way the next generation opened. Did they seem that their main job was defence or was it not exploration, with violence being a last resort.

Yeah, space did seem fairly dangerous in the original series but even there violence was a last resort and so it wouldn't have made sense to have instead called it, let alone the later series, Star Troops or Space Troopers.
Most militaries I think would see violence as part of their expected operations rather than a last resort.

 

[suarezguy]

There are many different parts to the military medical ; scientific research ; exploration ; historical research ; and combat and other things too

But there's not much indication in the shows that the tactical section is the main path to command and there is some indication that non-tactical combat/security generally doesn't lead to command, that would be odd if Starfleet was a military with combat its main purpose.

Okay, then what do you attribute the insistence that Starfleet isn't a military, despite it possessing all the attributes of a military?

Picard and his crew emphasized that their primary purpose was peaceful but so at times did Kirk and Spock; they shouldn't be either liars or ridiculous.

 

[WARLOCK1965]

The Prime Directive (as I understand it; I'm not sure if any of our heroes truly did), has to do with interfering in developing cultures that are not yet brought up to par with the Federation in technology nor societal norms. Of course the Prime Directive would hold true for colonization, but not for established colonies. At the same time, it would be assumed that any planet that's actually a member of the Federation would have access to the same technology as the rest of the Federation. We've already seen that there are cultural tests that, if not met, result in denial of acceptance into the alliance.

True but some would leave the planets laws for handle it I own people. Remember Scotty murder change if found guilty he would have been turned over to that planet but he was proven innocent lucky for him

 

[WARLOCK1965]

But there's not much indication in the shows that the tactical section is the main path to command and there is some indication that non-tactical combat/security generally doesn't lead to command, that would be odd if Starfleet was a military with combat its main purpose.



Picard and his crew emphasized that their primary purpose was peaceful but so at times did Kirk and Spock; they shouldn't be either liars or ridiculous.

They were truthful about hoping for peaceful relationship with others and a willingness to learn about others and to help others if possible but if they had to fight they would but they would regret any loss of lives for it lessen all of us that would be a lesson we need in today age

 

[Prax]

Situations vary and it seems that with those examples you're going with a strawman. Yeah, with something major like that you do need to just focus on defense for survival. But not all conflicts are that focusing and all-consuming; we've also seen that parts of Starfleet were engaged in combat against the Cardassians in a region of space while other parts stayed clear not only of that region but also didn't seem highly concerned about security or becoming more martial and even didn't act like the Federation was at war at all.



Yeah, space did seem fairly dangerous in the original series but even there violence was a last resort and so it wouldn't have made sense to have instead called it, let alone the later series, Star Troops or Space Troopers.
Most militaries I think would see violence as part of their expected operations rather than a last resort.

Since when does a military need to be "militaristic" to beeee a military? Starfleet is a Space Navy® They have military forces(in this case, Space Marines) when they need them. The Cardassian war was a retcon, and supposed to be 20 years old, with millions of casualties.

 

[The Wormhole]

But their mandate is mainly exploration or was i mistaken with the way the next generation opened. Did they seem that their main job was defence or was it not exploration, with violence being a last resort.

Violence is still a last resort in today's military.

Explorers in the past carried weapons to protect themselves but does that mean that they where millitary.

Explorers in the past were military. This is historical fact.

Of course not. Starfleet's attitude is "Wow, that's a really powerful ship... let's scan it and see if it has any critical weaknesses we can exploit "

And a military can't do this? Are you saying military automatically equals "shoot first, ask questions never" and that any other method is the very definition of non-military?

I attribute the insistence that Starfleet is a military to be our 21st century lack of imagination and unevolved ideas of what Starfleet is in the 24th century.

A common mistake people often make is assuming Star Trek is all about reinventing the wheel and presenting a completely different way of life and understanding. While an argument can be made that the actual 23rd and 24th centuries will be completely different and foreign for us of the 21st century to grasp, at least anymore than someone from 18th century could grasp modern day, the truth of the matter is that Star Trek is a show made for audiences of the 20th and 21st centuries and therefore it would present its ideas in concepts they can relate to and understand. If Roddenberry pitched Star Trek as following a scientific paramilitary force the NBC executives would have stared at him with confusion. It was instead pitched as an adventure series following a space military service, and that's what got the attention of NBC. Even TNG, though it had less studio control and interference still knew it had to present its ideas in terms a modern audience could relate to. And indeed, a Roddenberry-written episode from the first season of TNG actually does outright describe Starfleet to be a military, with the references to Starfleet not being a military coming after Roddenberry was removed from authority.

Roddenberry's only true attempt at Star Trek as something truly futuristic or different by modern standards would have been his ideas for Phase II which eventually got incorporated into the TMP novelization, and there are some very clear reasons why those were subsequently ignored by all Trek afterwards, even Roddenberry himself declared the TMP novelization non-canon despite having been written by himself. Hell, even a lot of the stuff that did make it into on-screen TMP quickly got re-written or ignored by TWOK, except for situations of budgetary expedience.

 

[WARLOCK1965]

Since when does a military need to be "militaristic" to beeee a military? Starfleet is a Space Navy® They have military forces(in this case, Space Marines) when they need them. The Cardassian war was a retcon, and supposed to be 20 years old, with millions of casualties.

Agreed and true

 

[Hunter Zolomon]

Explorers in the past were military. This is historical fact.

So what branch of the military was Christopher columbus. Or in the klingon military how many scientists or engineers do u think are serving on those ships. Not too many, wanna know why? They consider theirselves a military, so diplomacy or scientific discovery is their very low on their priorities. While in star fleet, every vessel seems to be filled with mostly scientists and biologists, engineers. From the top of the chain of command to the lowest ranked. Star fleets seems to essentially be NASA, if they were capable of interstellar flight and warfare. Starfleet will defend the federation if it needs to but its main job would be exploration. Which makes sense if u think of the federation, Starfleet officers keep remindibg us their not soldiers, and i am sure if they were considered the military, new worlds would be less likely to join the federation because of the fear of having a foreign military force superseding theirs. However if they are considered more explorers than soldiers, worlds would be put at ease. Its do clear how different star fleet is in contrast to the armed forces of other factions. Star fleet is essentially armed scientists and explorers with the mandate to use lethal force if they need to.

 

[1001001]

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