Why is there resistance to the idea of Starfleet being military?

[Paradise City]

Well, in these discussions, I'm sometimes minded back to Eddington likening the Federation to the borg. Eddington's lament was that the Federation does a sleight of hand whereas the borg are up front about their conquests. Now that's obvious hyperbole and trolling of Sisko and what have you. But there is a kernel of truth to it too.

The Federation likes to decorate all of its institutions including Starfleet as being devoted to science, exploration and peace. And this ethos once established then entices members to join the club. That -- and colonisation projects -- is the method by which the Federation expands whereas most other imperial rivals seem to expand by brute force. In this sense, Starfleet is there to defend territory already gained. It doesn't want war not just because they are a swell bunch of guys but also because war actually undermines their ability to expand.

What I'm trying to say, is that the Federation conquers not through force but through its ethos. And Starfleet is on hand to hold territory once gained and guard against adversaries. That's a military role as well but it's not something that Starfleet likes to formally prioritise despite it being defacto what they do. They want to keep their ethos as devout altruists intact for public consumption and because thinking in these terms has a therapeutic influence on them too.

 

[KelisThePoet]

Or, people would rather join up with a non-militant alliance and appreciate the fact that its previous member worlds expend their resources to protect the whole, including the newest members, from the true imperial powers.

Just because it's enticing, it doesn't have to be devious, and just because it's self-serving, it doesn't have to be disloyal.

 

[fireproof78]

Again, I'm not denying that Starfleet occasionally engages in the kind of work one expects of the armed forces. The first episode of Voyager is kind of about that. In any case, that's a singular mission, not the ship's primary directive from Starfleet.

In the very same episode, Janeway states, "And as the only Starfleet vessel assigned to the Delta Quadrant, we'll continue to follow our directive: to seek out new worlds and explore space."

And USS Voyager is a long range science vessel, not a warship.

My larger point is simply that it is the military and more. That the 21st definition of "military" doesn't prohibit many of Starfleet's activities.
If scientific and defense force works better, so be it. But all my research indicates that the 21st century military engages in several activities that are similar to Starfleet.

I don't have a problem with middle ground, but I do struggle with the wholesale rejection of Starfleet as a military. So, common ground, it's a exploration and defense service. No issues here.

 

[The Wormhole]

And USS Voyager is a long range science vessel, not a warship.

Actually, no. The Intrepid class was designed for combat. And it wasn't intended to be long range. From the episode The Thaw:

KIM: It's the darn fluid conduits running through the walls. They conduct sound. You'd think when they designed this thing, they would have
PARIS: This ship was built for combat performance, Harry, not musical performance. Nobody figured we'd be taking any long trips.

 

[Balok's Decoy]

Actually, no. The Intrepid class was designed for combat. And it wasn't intended to be long range. From the episode The Thaw:

So the entire description of Voyager and the Intrepid class on Memory Alpha is just wrong then? I kinda doubt one throwaway line in one episode negates everything else that's established about that ship. http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Intrepid_class

 

[WebLurker]

Actually, no. The Intrepid class was designed for combat. And it wasn't intended to be long range. From the episode The Thaw:

Given that Paris was making a joke, are we sure that it should mean that combat was Voyager's main purpose, or that it was just designed to be able to fight?

Also, Memory Alpha specifically cites that Intrepid-class ships were designed for long-term missions (although it's unclear which episode they're getting that from).

So the entire description of Voyager and the Intrepid class on Memory Alpha is just wrong then? I kinda doubt one line in one episode negates everything else that's established about that ship. http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Intrepid_class

Just saw that. Agreed. Just because the ship was designed with combat-capabilities doesn't mean that that is the intended purpose.

 

[Balok's Decoy]

Given that Paris was making a joke, are we sure that it should mean that combat was Voyager's main purpose, or that it was just designed to be able to fight?

Also, Memory Alpha specifically cites that Intrepid-class ships were designed for long-term missions (although it's unclear which episode they're getting that from).



Just saw that. Agreed. Just because the ship was designed with combat-capabilities doesn't mean that that is the intended purpose.

If I had a nickel for every isolated line in Star Trek that contradicted itself...

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Given that Paris was making a joke, are we sure that it should mean that combat was Voyager's main purpose, or that it was just designed to be able to fight?

Also, Memory Alpha specifically cites that Intrepid-class ships were designed for long-term missions (although it's unclear which episode they're getting that from).



Just saw that. Agreed. Just because the ship was designed with combat-capabilities doesn't mean that that is the intended purpose.

Given Voyager's initial mission, I think it's reasonable to suggest that combat (or more likely defensive patrol in case of combat) is one of the Intrepid-class' standing roles (and given the limited on-board science team likely the only mission she'd been scheduled for at launch). The only other Intrepid-class we've seen on screen AFAIK was Ross' Bellerophon which was being used as diplomatic transport, supporting the idea that the Intrepid is intended to replace the aging Excelsior and Ambassador class designs in the "workhorse" role supporting the larger, more powerful Nebula, Sovereign and Galaxy-classes which are the true "long range" vessels, as they have much larger crews to support a high-level of activity over a longer period).

 

[jaime]

Given Voyager's initial mission, I think it's reasonable to suggest that combat (or more likely defensive patrol in case of combat) is one of the Intrepid-class' standing roles (and given the limited on-board science team likely the only mission she'd been scheduled for at launch). The only other Intrepid-class we've seen on screen AFAIK was Ross' Bellerophon which was being used as diplomatic transport, supporting the idea that the Intrepid is intended to replace the aging Excelsior and Ambassador class designs in the "workhorse" role supporting the larger, more powerful Nebula, Sovereign and Galaxy-classes which are the true "long range" vessels, as they have much larger crews to support a high-level of activity over a longer period).

Every ship post the galaxy had combat designed at a higher level because of the Borg. It didn't necessarily change the state of affairs regarding them being science ships etc. Voyagers big design difference was speed an sustained high warp travel without tearing up subspace. That's why it was being used in the badlands. It's like a little all terrain ship.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

So the entire description of Voyager and the Intrepid class on Memory Alpha is just wrong then?

Also, Memory Alpha specifically cites that Intrepid-class ships were designed for long-term missions (although it's unclear which episode they're getting that from).

Memory Alpha isn't canon. What is shown onscreen and what is stated in the episodes is however.

 

[jaime]

Memory Alpha isn't canon. What is shown onscreen and what is stated in the episodes is however.

I was under the impression memory alpha only collated from those sources, with a hint of production stuff...memory beta is the one that goes into less certain ground.

 

[Balok's Decoy]

Memory Alpha isn't canon. What is shown onscreen and what is stated in the episodes is however.

Memory Alpha only describes what is onscreen, what is canon. Memory Beta is everything else. So...it's canon.

EDIT: It's well known that Memory Alpha is the Star Trek canon encyclopedia online, but this is their policy guidelines which explicitly state as much: http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Memory_Alpha:Content_policy_FAQ?useskin=oasis

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

I was under the impression memory alpha only collated from those sources, with a hint of production stuff...memory beta is the one that goes into less certain ground.

So you accept Memory Alpha as canon when it's suits your position but not when it contains something you don't agree with, as was the case with Colonel West? (Which is totally canon because it was reinstated and shown onscreen).

Memory Alpha only describes what is onscreen, what is canon. Memory Beta is everything else. So...it's canon.

EDIT: It's well known that Memory Alpha is the Star Trek canon encyclopedia online, but this is their policy guidelines which explicitly state as much: http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Memory_Alpha:Content_policy_FAQ?useskin=oasis

As you can see, they even say so themselves that they shouldn't be considered canon in the link you posted:

"Why not just use the term "canon" instead of "in-universe"?"
"For eight years, Memory Alpha had a Canon policy, which wasn't, for the most part, even about "canon"…
Memory Alpha isn't here to decide what is or isn't canon".

 

[Balok's Decoy]

So you accept Memory Alpha as canon when it's suits your position but not when it contains something you don't agree with, as was the case with Colonel West? (Which is totally canon because it was reinstated and shown onscreen).



As you can see, they even say so themselves that they shouldn't be considered canon in the link you posted:

"Why not just use the term "canon" instead of "in-universe"?"
"For eight years, Memory Alpha had a Canon policy, which wasn't, for the most part, even about "canon"…
Memory Alpha isn't here to decide what is or isn't canon".

Good Lord. They don't use the terminology "canon" because it is (clearly) a loaded word. They use the term "in-universe." But note how their definition of "in-universe" is exactly the same as your above definition of "canon."

Look, if you're going to move the goalposts to suit your argument, this debate isn't really worth having. Memory Alpha is consistently and justifiably used to settle matters of canon or in-universe or truth or whatever you wanna call it.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Look, if you're going to move the goalposts to suit your argument, this debate isn't really worth having. Memory Alpha is consistently and justifiably used to settle matters of canon or in-universe or truth or whatever you wanna call it.

Quite the opposite. I'm not the one moving the goalposts (as is evident by the TUC Colonel West and the TFF assault team discussions). I'd be quite happy if everyone here agreed that everything in Memory Alpha is 100% canon. For instance it would canonize at last the spherical model in Sisko's office as the Daedalus-class.

In fact I'm totally pissed that people keep changing their minds regarding the status of "canon". Because the last time I cited Memory Alpha AND the Star Trek Encyclopedia AND StarTrek.com I got 'beaten up' page after page about what's canon or not!!!

http://www.trekbbs.com/threads/just-use-a-connie.284008/page-14

 

[The Wormhole]

Also, Memory Alpha specifically cites that Intrepid-class ships were designed for long-term missions (although it's unclear which episode they're getting that from).

As I can cite both episode and scene for my claim, I expect nothing less from anyone making a counterclaim. Memory Alpha, great resource that it is, is at the end of the day user generated and not affiliated with CBS in any official capacity.

 

[Balok's Decoy]

As I can cite both episode and scene for my claim, I expect nothing less from anyone making a counterclaim. Memory Alpha, great resource that it is, is at the end of the day user generated and not affiliated with CBS in any official capacity.

Well if you look at the context of the scene and the delivery of the line, it's pretty clear to me that he's saying that sarcastically.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

In any case, this back and forth about lines is a pointless endeavor. This is like quoting conflicting Bible verses. For every line one person uses to justify their argument, someone can find another line to justify theirs and contradict the others. It's not a useful exercise. Also I have a life to live that doesn't involve scanning iMDB quotes.

 

[The Wormhole]

Also I have a life to live that doesn't involve scanning iMDB quotes.

That sounds inconvenient, but is of course your choice to make. As long as you remember your statements carry more weight with a canon source to back them up.

 

[J.T.B.]

And USS Voyager is a long range science vessel, not a warship.

Actually, no. The Intrepid class was designed for combat.

I have said this a few times but I think it bears repeating: The Federation can't really have a military/defense force like we think of as conventional today. Today, nations basically know who their enemies are where military threats will come from. From what Trek has shown, serious threats are as likely to be completely unknown and unforeseen. It makes perfect sense that an exploration craft would have combat ability, because exploration has been show to be very dangerous. It also makes sense that a major exploration vessel like E-D would be counted on to fill a major "military" role when needed. Exploration and defense could two sides of the same coin.

 

[Balok's Decoy]

That sounds inconvenient, but is of course your choice to make. As long as you remember your statements carry more weight with a canon source to back them up.

I agree that referencing the shows or the films is generally valuable. To that end, I argue that Memory Alpha is a convenient and reliable resource. But cherry-picking lines only goes so far, because as I've said before, Star Trek can be extremely inconsistent with itself. So it can easily become a line citation pissing contest, which serves no one.

As far as that one line in "The Thaw", I think Paris delivered it in a sarcastic, flippant way, which is consistent with his character. He's not defining the ship's specs or purpose. He's giving an eye-rolly reaction. Citing chapter and verse can be useful, but only with the proper context.