Why is there resistance to the idea of Starfleet being military?

[Balok's Decoy]

But as has already been pointed out, most militaries IRL aren't "only" a military either. What does that word even mean, in this context? It's not like, say, the US Army does nothing all day but fight. No military does.

It goes back to my previous point. Sure, the Army and the Navy don't only fight. But all of their other activities are for the purposes of defense. Their R&D, scientific, and administrative roles are all in some way supporting defense and security operations.

 

[Jedi_Master]

We are all correct because it's all made up and the points don't matter.

 

[Tallguy]

Ok. Starfleet is not a military. Apparently it says so on the tin.

Is it appropriate for a non-military force to be so heavily armed? My gods man, they can take on the Klingons AND the Romulans!

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

There have been exactly two people in Trek who've said that the Federation Starfleet isn't military: Picard ("Peak Performance") and nuScotty. Neither of them, by the way, offered any proof or explanation as to why they believe this.

Supporters of the position that Starfleet IS military, on the other hand, have ready made proof to back up this assertion.

 

[Ithekro]

There have been exactly two people in Trek who've said that the Federation Starfleet isn't military: Picard ("Peak Performance") and nuScotty. Neither of them, by the way, offered any proof or explanation as to why they believe this.

Neither character has a reason to lie about it in the situations they say it.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

It might be instructive to compare Starfleet's mission statement as we know it with that of the US Coast Guard, a real world organisation is both military (under the Department of Navy) and a "non-military" security/safety organisation (for most of the "Star Trek"-era it was under Transportation, since '03 it's been under Homeland). Which is broadly consistent with UFP Starfleet's approach (military when needed, otherwise "not" but retains the ability to engage in military activity at short notice).

1) Ice Operations (consists of scientific observation of environment and safety assessments. Broadly consistent)
2) Marine Resources Management [Fisheries] (no direct parallel, but plausibly consistent)
3) Marine Enviromentmental Protection (no direct parallel, but plausibly consistent)
4) Aids to Navigation (explicitly consistent)
5) Search and Rescue (explicitly consistent)
6) Defense Readiness (explicitly consistent, if plausibly unpopular with many officers).
7) Maritime Law Enforcement (explicitly consistent during TOS, less explicit but examples could be found)
8) Migrant Interdiction (generally not present, but likely consistent across enemy borders?)
9) Ports, Waterways and Coastal Security (infrequently the focus, but broadly consistent).
10) Drug interdiction (generally not present, but likely consistent if and where a problem?)

Seems to hang together reasonably well to me.

You?

 

[Jedi_Master]

There have been exactly two people in Trek who've said that the Federation Starfleet isn't military: Picard ("Peak Performance") and nuScotty. Neither of them, by the way, offered any proof or explanation as to why they believe this.

Supporters of the position that Starfleet IS military, on the other hand, have ready made proof to back up this assertion.

So is Starfleet a democracy?

 

[Balok's Decoy]

A lot of definitions and ideas change in the 24th century. So I can grant that in the Trek universe, society's needs and ideas have shifted so drastically that the very concept of what a military is and what its role is has changed from being primarily defense to primarily exploration. Because that is what they're doing almost all the time -- exploring, not fighting. Today, when the military isn't fighting, they're drilling and preparing and building defense and security capabilities to prevent wars. That isn't really what Starfleet is doing in their down time. That changes once they encounter the Borg, and they're definitely a military during the Dominion War. But in general, they're explorers first and soldiers like fourth or fifth. Can they prioritize exploration and diplomacy and science and still be a military organization? ....Sure. Sure they can. But we have to mean the same thing when we say "military" and I think that's the divide here.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I admit I'm curious to learn more about the Federation Naval Patrol. We only heard Tom Paris mention it, but never actually saw it; we have no idea what kind of an organization the FNP is like.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Who does?

Starfleet apparently.

That's because "Starfleet" is a fictional entity in service to the plot. A plot where bad boy makes good. Like when a shepherd/musician boy takes down a Giant and becomes head the army and later King.

 

[Nerys Myk]

^ War the song - fought by Bruce Springsteen

I thought that was Edwin Starr.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

A lot of definitions and ideas change in the 24th century. So I can grant that in the Trek universe, society's needs and ideas have shifted so drastically that the very concept of what a military is and what its role is has changed from being primarily defense to primarily exploration. Because that is what they're doing almost all the time -- exploring, not fighting. Today, when the military isn't fighting, they're drilling and preparing and building defense and security capabilities to prevent wars. That isn't really what Starfleet is doing in their down time. That changes once they encounter the Borg, and they're definitely a military during the Dominion War. But in general, they're explorers first and soldiers like fourth or fifth. Can they prioritize exploration and diplomacy and science and still be a military organization? ....Sure. Sure they can. But we have to mean the same thing when we say "military" and I think that's the divide here.

I would refer you to the Roman Legions... widely regarded as one of, if not the greatest and most successful military forces in Western history, was also responsible for one of the largest programs of road-building and civil-engineering in history.

 

[Balok's Decoy]

I would refer you to the Roman Legions... widely regarded as one of, if not the greatest and most successful military forces in Western history, was also responsible for one of the largest programs of road-building and civil-engineering in history.

Again, we need to identify what we mean by military. Because when someone says military, I'm not thinking "Roman Legions." I'm thinking US Army and the Navy, in contemporary contexts.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Is it appropriate for a non-military force to be so heavily armed? My gods man, they can take on the Klingons AND the Romulans!

What you said reminded me of the "Two-power standard" the (British) Royal Navy had in the 19th and early 20th century. The standard called for the Royal Navy to be as strong as the world's next two largest navies combined by maintaining a number of battleships at least equal to their combined strength. I wonder if Starfleet has a similar policy.

Again, we need to identify what we mean by military. Because when someone says military, I'm not thinking "Roman Legions." I'm thinking US Army and the Navy, in contemporary contexts.

The Roman Republic and Imperial Legions were professional armed forces made up from professional soldiers so again, it is a military by any definition of the word used.

 

[Tenacity]

When the NX-01 went out into the black, what was its purpose? Defence or exploration? Not it's later Duties...the mission it was built for?

There were six positions on the bridge, one was for a science officer, another was for the ship's ordinance officer.

There no indication that Reed was added to the crew at the last minute.

 

[Ithekro]

A basic disconnect we have in this discussion is not what the definition of a military is, but what the term "military" means to people in the 24th century. Because to them, Starfleet is not a military.

There were six positions on the bridge, one was for a science officer, another was for the ship's ordinance officer.

There no indication that Reed was added to the crew at the last minute.

Ships that go out into the wild unknown would have weapons of some kind usually if the person operating the ships could afford it.

Reed was head of security, the tactical officer, and in charge of the armory were the phase pistols and plasma guns were kept in addition to their torpedoes, which seem to be marginally effective at best. This was mostly due to Starfleet not having a dedicated security force as of yet for exploration duties. It is also noted that Reed comes from a long line of Ordinance specialist of the Royal Navy and the only reason he is in Starfleet instead is because he cannot handle being on a ship at sea.

It is worth pointing out that the Royal Navy still existed beside Starfleet, meaning there was still a military on Earth.

 

[Nerys Myk]

A basic disconnect we have in this discussion is not what the definition of a military is, but what the term "military" means to people in the 24th century. Because to them, Starfleet is not a military.

I guess "military" is what everyone except the Federation uses for defense.

 

[Ithekro]

Or else the Federation does have a military, but because we get such a narrow view of the universe through Starfleet, we almost never see it, and when we do, we assume they are part of Starfleet.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Or else the Federation does have a military, but because we get such a narrow view of the universe through Starfleet, we almost never see it, and when we do, we assume they are part of Starfleet.

Maybe they should stop calling up the explorers to defend the Federation or give the military a different uniform.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

The Federation Defense Force. UFP's best kept secret. So secret they never send them to any border, mission, skirmish, battle or war so they won't reveal themselves. They prefer to use Cannon Fodder Starfleet instead.