I just looked up the scene in question, and she does specifically mention being an away team. Still, given that she and her away had to defend a ground outpost, we can assume there were infantrymen on the ground working with them.
Why is there resistance to the idea of Starfleet being military?
- Thread starter The Wormhole
- Start date
- Status
There is an entertaining fanfiction story which sets Starfleet up as out and out military from the get go. MCS (Military Command Starfleet) where humans are as augmented as Khan but without the egomaniac attitude and are still the good guys and it works well ! The TNG/DS9 writers had limited imagination.
Military is by definition weapony (although it's not the only thing that is, so are many police forces) but it also reasonably implies not just a hierarchical rank structure but that the hierarchy is rather rigid. But on the shows there is authority but the captains are often lenient to officers who earn trust but defy orders rarely (although of course less so when in combat situtations), I think it makes more sense that Starfleet overall the hierarchical structure and discipline is less rigid than that the captains are just doing a bad job.
I think the term military also implies the forces are ready to fight at any moment and for whatever reason the authorities decide. When the government authorities are restrained by custom or especially by law to fighting only in defense it may be a semantic distinction but a meaningful one to refer to the armed forces as defense forces.
I don't think it's much of a problem or leads to misnomers. The last original cast movie, by Meyer, did have the characters thinking that making peace with the Klingons would drastically change the nature and functioning of Starfleet.
23rd century probably (and the claim wasn't made often) but in the 24th century the Romulans would probably consider Starfleet to be so non-militaristic and -aggressive that it's not a military or its less a military than some idealistic-inept defense patrol (for example thinking they could conquer and occupy Vulcan with three ships and some 2,000 troops). By the 24th century the Klingons would probably also scoff at the idea that Starfleet is a group of warriors even if they occasionally are willing and able to fight.
Last edited:
To some extent, but as I said pages ago, a late 19th century navy is a better analogue. Global reach, responsibilities for colonial patrol and support as well as national defense, and not-insignificant sidelines like exploration, survey and mapping and diplomatic transport. If you disregard the setting, the missions of the starship Enterprise map almost 1-to-1 with those of protected cruisers of the Victorian Royal Navy.
Charles Darwin was born in 1809 and did not go to Australia till 1836 with the sloop Beagle, when he found Sydney a "fine town" with "well furnished" shops. Sir Joseph Banks was a botanist on Captain Cook's first voyage 1768-1771 and gathered the plant specimens that gave Botany Bay its name, but that was as a member of the Royal Society, not the Royal Navy.
Well, "One of the most important people aboard an 18th century naval vessel was the botanist" makes it sound like it was common to have one aboard, but actually it was rare.
The ranks are a manifestation of a system of military discipline. Regardless of specialty, a commander has more authority than a lieutenant commander, a lieutenant commander more than a lieutenant and so on, and personnel are responsible to follow orders from those with more authority. That kind of system was in place on TOS from the beginning.
I'm late, but I'll chime in. Starfleet isn't Military, but it is structured like the Navy, they're explorers and they're more modeled after the likes of Christopher Columbus and Magellan who sailed the "seven seas" searching for new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no European has gone before. These were explorers, but were structured like Navy's, admirals, captains, military personel for fighting natives.
They did have weapons and had skirmishes with Natives when exploring and conquering/colonizing new land. Unlike Magellan and Columbus, Starfleet only colonizes non-inhabited worlds and does not conquer. In addition to armed combat and violence Columbus and Magellan used Christianity to get natives on their side, spread the word of God and the promise of eternal salvation. Starfleet does the same thing, join the federation, no need more for money, anything you want will be given unto you, the end of the violence, war. You will have peace and an everlasting utopia if you join our blessed Federation.
Both Starfleet and Columbus/Magellan fought when they needed to, but were not military by nature. If let's say there was a similar "advanced" civilization living in America at the time, I'm sure both Columbus and Magellan would help lead an assault against them. And Magellan also demonstrated that Picard was right, he had no right to go on away missions and got himself killed for doing it.
Starfleet is just the same as the voyages of Christopher Columbus and Magellan, but on a much larger scale. And I don't think anyone would consider Columbus or Magellan to be military.
They did have weapons and had skirmishes with Natives when exploring and conquering/colonizing new land. Unlike Magellan and Columbus, Starfleet only colonizes non-inhabited worlds and does not conquer. In addition to armed combat and violence Columbus and Magellan used Christianity to get natives on their side, spread the word of God and the promise of eternal salvation. Starfleet does the same thing, join the federation, no need more for money, anything you want will be given unto you, the end of the violence, war. You will have peace and an everlasting utopia if you join our blessed Federation.
Both Starfleet and Columbus/Magellan fought when they needed to, but were not military by nature. If let's say there was a similar "advanced" civilization living in America at the time, I'm sure both Columbus and Magellan would help lead an assault against them. And Magellan also demonstrated that Picard was right, he had no right to go on away missions and got himself killed for doing it.
Starfleet is just the same as the voyages of Christopher Columbus and Magellan, but on a much larger scale. And I don't think anyone would consider Columbus or Magellan to be military.
But Starfleet has consistently been portrayed as having a -- if not "the" -- central role in national defense. The voyages of Columbus and Magellan are not comparable in that way.
I guess to go forward I'll ask those of the "Starfleet is not military" point of view: How do you define a "military organization"?
Why are Starfleet fighting wars if they are not military, why don't they keep their exploring butts out of the Romulan war, Klingon war, Cardessian war, Dominion war?
I personally define a "military organization" as an armed forces organization whose primary function and purpose is defense -- whether of a nation or state or government, through the use of force, implied or direct. They are limited in their scope to that essential function.
To me, Starfleet is partially a military organization. But since their raison d'etre is not defense, I think defining Starfleet strictly as a military organization doesn't capture either their true, essential purpose or the full scope of their responsibilities. I agree that many aspects of Starfleet are similar to the military and they wield many of those functions. But in terms of how we today define a military, Starfleet is much more than that. They're like NASA, the U.N., NATO, and the Navy.
One wonders if all those other Starship classes that pop up from First Contact into the Dominion War were not "Starfleet" but the actual Federation military ships, and that Starfleet was drafted and given a uniform change when that started. Starfleet commanders were given priority due to experience dealing with the aliens involved rather than military experience. For all we know Admiral Ross was military rather than Starfleet prior to the buildup to the Dominion War.
Nobody would ever expect Columbus and Magellan to monitor and protect foreign borders or to do combat with foreign (or domestic) navies.
Thanks for that. Two follow-ups: One, does the British Royal Navy c. 1850-1900 qualify as a military organization? And, two, how do we know Starfleet's primary purpose and function is not defense? Exploring is not much use if your home territory is not secure, and we have seen the ships' war-fighting functions given priority over everything else when needed.
I don't know enough about 19th century British naval history to have an informed opinion one way or the other.
We know Starfleet's primary mission is exploration and contacting new life. This is a constant refrain from characters throughout all the shows and films, it's the core of most plots when you get down to it. Also:
"Space...the final frontier. These are the voyages of the Starship Enterprise. Its five year mission: to explore strange new worlds. To seek out new life, and new civilizations. To boldly go where no one has gone before."
Not "to defend the Federation from all threats, both foreign and domestic."
Yes it does. 19th century military but military nevertheless.
"Don't mind us. We're, umm… just exploring".
Ultimately, on screen protagonists who are members of starfleet, and not characterised as dishonest have said Starfleet isn't a military, more often than protagonists have said it is.
On a related note...I finally saw Beyond tonight...not only did it it declare starfleet non military, it also folded up the Macos, all at a point before the timelines diverge.
Ladies and gentlemen of the opposing sides....my sympathies. It was a pretty good film.
On a related note...I finally saw Beyond tonight...not only did it it declare starfleet non military, it also folded up the Macos, all at a point before the timelines diverge.
Ladies and gentlemen of the opposing sides....my sympathies. It was a pretty good film.
Also not:
Medical examination of archaeologists.
Medical treatment of assistant federation commissioners.
Carrying passagers.
Carrying cargo.
Investigating unidentified vessels.
Investigating penal colonies.
Responding to distress calls.
Attend inauguration ceremonies,
Securing rights to natural resources.
Checking on automatic communications and astrogation stations.
Searching for missing starships.
To be honest, Starfleet actually spend relatively little time engaging in exploration.
Last edited:
To be fair, about half of those are exploration, and at least one is basic good behaviour 'at sea' as it were.
And how many times have Starfleet officers used the word "fire?"
Could it be far more times than officers have said Starfleet isn't a military.
Okay, which half?
If you read my previous posts, you'd see I acknowledge that military engagement is a part of Starfleet. And it is. When called upon, as a last resort, Starfleet does engage in military operations. But again, that is not their primary mission or purpose. Perhaps in the event of something like, oh I don't know, the Dominion War, exploration takes a backseat so they can attend to that pressing matter. But once the war is over, they return to their primary mission of exploration and diplomacy with new civilizations.
- Status
