Why is there resistance to the idea of Starfleet being military?

[fireproof78]

It's funny because, as its written, Jellico is supposed to be a jerk, and yet, looking at it now, he has several great points. Troi is a commissioned officer, and should dress the part, since she isn't engaged in counseling duties on the Bridge. He walks out on the Cardassian delegation because he knows it is a show of strength, indicating he understands them better than is assumed.

I honestly think it is a good episode, because it portrays several sides of the argument.

And finally, even if Picard and Janeway and others started out as science officers, and prefer Starfleet as an exploration agency, so what? Several people join the military without the full understanding of what their job might entail, aware that some people might have to fight, but not them. How individuals perceived their job within an organization doesn't automatically mean the organization fits their view.

 

[The Wormhole]

Well she probably was unused to there being mass casualties

Again, even under routine conditions sickbay should be prepared for mass casualties. Like in Ethics when they respond to that distress call to render aid to that damaged transport. Making sure sickbay is prepared for casualties is the job description for the chief medical officer, which IMO Jellico should hae reminded her of when she glared at him.

Why do you think it happens frequently? I believe we've heard of three conflicts during a 70-year period.

Within the time period between TUC and TNG there was:
-The Tomed Incident which resulted in many Federation casualties and caused the Romulans to withdraw within their borders for the next fifty years.
-Tholians were aggressive enough against the Federation that they were regularly destroying starbases and Starfleet cadets trained specifically to fight Tholians.
-Relations with the Klingons continued to deteriorate to the point there could have been a twenty year war that the Federation would have lost had the Enterprise C not defended Narendra III.
-Ongoing wars with the Cardassians and the Tzenkethi.

at times Starfleet looked like mainly like an organization of pacifist scientists who only wanted to explore the galaxy or practice science.

Because that's exactly how I would characterize characters like Jellico, Nechayev, Pressman, Captain Maxwell, Admiral Cartwright, Admiral Leyton, Admiral Ross, Admiral Marcus and so on. Hell, most of Starfleet's top brass in TUC were convinced peace with the Klingons meant there was no longer a purpose for Starfleet, only one officer present pointed out they have science and exploration programs that should continue unhindered.

Hell, look at how many Starfleet officers turn renegade, especially among the Captains and Admirals. What is it that draws a bunch of power hungry maniacs and psychos to Starfleet if it's a pacifist agency dedicated to practicing science?

 

[Tenacity]

Why do you think it happens frequently? I believe we've heard of three conflicts during a 70-year period.

CH'POK: Chief, how many years have you been in Starfleet?
O'BRIEN: Twenty two.
CH'POK: And how many combat situations have you been in?
O'BRIEN: I couldn't even guess.
CH'POK: Try.
O'BRIEN: A hundred, hundred and fifty?
CH'POK: For the record, Chief O'Brien has been in two hundred and thirty five separate engagements and Starfleet has decorated him fifteen times. I would like to have him declared an expert in the area of starship combat.

Two hundred and thirty five separate engagements, that's a average of ten or eleven a year.


The Enterprise A's last action before being retired wasn't exploration, it was combat.
The Enterprise C was lost in combat.
The Enterprise D was lost in combat.

 

[Sci]

I'll believe that Starfleet is not a military when they stop convening courts-martial.

 

[Shawnster]

It's funny because, as its written, Jellico is supposed to be a jerk, and yet, looking at it now, he has several great points. Troi is a commissioned officer, and should dress the part, since she isn't engaged in counseling duties on the Bridge. He walks out on the Cardassian delegation because he knows it is a show of strength, indicating he understands them better than is assumed.

Add to that the way the Enterprise crew blatantly disobeyed and ignored Jellico's orders. Don't like his style? Fine. Rather be exploring? OK. Prefer to serve under Picard? Understandable. Those are no reasons to not implement 4 duty shifts or dedicate a station to a combat function or be pissy like Riker was.

In any organization whether military, paramilitary, civilian or whatever, when a superior gives you an order or instruction that is legal, you follow it.

 

[Tenacity]

Re: Jellico.

Supposing that Starfleet is a just a exploration service than can be called upon to engage in occasional combat (which is silly, but let's go with it), and that personal knew they would be fighting periodically (from O'Brien's example maybe once a month), why do the officers act little insolent children in Chain of Command?

Prior to Jellico's arrival the ship had seen frequent combat and the crew was trained to fight.

In addition to combat casualties, the ship would responded to non-combat events that would involve large number of casualties, Crusher would know how to orient sickbay to handle large numbers of casualties. It's a part of her duties.

In Journey's End, Picard said that the war with the Cardassian's had "caused massive destruction and cost millions of lives." Unless the deaths were totally one sided during the course of the war, Starfleet personnel would know friends and colleagues who had died in the war, and would know that themselves having to engage in combat with the Cardassians (even if they themselves had never done so yet) could likely be a part of their duties.

 

[FormerLurker]

It wasn't well presented, but the idea was to make Jellico look like he was spoiling for a fight. All the preparations he was demanding were supposed to appear to our intrepid heroes like Jellico intended to start the next Federation/Cardassian war, and they didn't want to be a part of it.

There should have been more exposition, perhaps a scene between Jellico and Nechayev, explaining that the plan was to be ready for anything in case the confrontation Jellico saw no choice but to have with the Cardassians went south, but that the confrontation was intended to put the Cardassians on the kind of defensive posture that made them weak, and appear to be so, to those they need to look strong to.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Yeah, I've been thinking about throwing in my two bits on the Jellico tangent. I think our intended takeaway is that (a) Jellico's preparations are overkill that do more to put the ship's existing crew off-balance than to produce any practical combat-worthiness; and (b) Jellico's mission is supposed to be negotiating, but he acts far more interested in preparing for war and marking his territory on the ship than in actually negotiating.

As someone who was just coming out of his fast food-working years when the episode aired, Jellico always reminded me of "new manager syndrome"...every time a new store manager came in, they had a tendency to make a show of reinventing the wheel, acting as if people who'd been working the store for months or years before they came along didn't know their jobs.

 

[MacLeod]

Yeah, I've been thinking about throwing in my two bits on the Jellico tangent. I think our intended takeaway is that (a) Jellico's preparations are overkill that do more to put the ship's existing crew off-balance than to produce any practical combat-worthiness; and (b) Jellico's mission is supposed to be negotiating, but he acts far more interested in preparing for war and marking his territory on the ship than in actually negotiating.

As someone who was just coming out of his fast food-working years when the episode aired, Jellico always reminded me of "new manager syndrome"...every time a new store manager came in, they had a tendency to make a show of reinventing the wheel, acting as if people who'd been working the store for months or years before they came along didn't know their jobs.

I've had a fair few managers over the years some would come in and take a few months to settle in before trying to change things too much. Others have you said want to make their mark on the store. And yep I would be Rikers place as the Deputy Manager

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Yeah, I've been thinking about throwing in my two bits on the Jellico tangent. I think our intended takeaway is that (a) Jellico's preparations are overkill that do more to put the ship's existing crew off-balance than to produce any practical combat-worthiness; and (b) Jellico's mission is supposed to be negotiating, but he acts far more interested in preparing for war and marking his territory on the ship than in actually negotiating.

As someone who was just coming out of his fast food-working years when the episode aired, Jellico always reminded me of "new manager syndrome"...every time a new store manager came in, they had a tendency to make a show of reinventing the wheel, acting as if people who'd been working the store for months or years before they came along didn't know their jobs.

I've seen this happen enough times that this is what made me think that "Chain of Command" was basically Nechayev's attempt to torpedo Picard's career. I just can't get over the glaring problem with the premise of this episode: even if you could make the case that Picard was the ONLY officer in ALL OF STARFLEET who had the scientific knowledge to run that black op, he doesn't have the training for deep cover infiltration, or even if he has, it's been a good ten years since he had to do it and strictly speaking he's too old to have to try. Meanwhile, he's got a whole crew full of people better suited to that mission, including -- for example -- Data, who could simply download everything Starfleet knows about subspace carrier waves and run the mission with a team of yellow shirts. There's no reason for Jellico to be in COMMAND of anything whatsoever; it would make more sense for the Enterprise to escort the Cairo and have him negotiate from his own ship.

 

[Nyotarules]

The writers, sadists that they were, just wanted Picard naked and tortured.

 

[Tenacity]

was basically Nechayev's attempt to torpedo Picard's career

After his bone headed decision in I Borg, who could blame her?

Like Admiral Pressman, Picard must have some powerful friends in positions of authority.

 

[Nyotarules]

After his bone headed decision in I Borg, who could blame her?

Like Admiral Pressman, Picard must have some powerful friends in positions of authority.

They get endless crates of wine from Chateau Picard

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

After his bone headed decision in I Borg, who could blame her?

Like Admiral Pressman, Picard must have some powerful friends in positions of authority.

What that decision where he let Hugh and company leave?

 

[Kevman7987]

What that decision where he let Hugh and company leave?

Yes, instead of committing genocide to destroy the Borg Collective.

I feel that had they started the Borg as they are now, as a collective of various species as opposed to their own species, that Picard would not have hesitated. The writers probably would have then left it as the collective being destroyed, freeing the individuals.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Yes, instead of committing genocide to destroy the Borg Collective.

I feel that had they started the Borg as they are now, as a collective of various species as opposed to their own species, that Picard would not have hesitated. The writers probably would have then left it as the collective being destroyed, freeing the individuals.

Yeah that was Picard on his moral high horse.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Yeah that was Picard on his moral high horse.

In hindsight, it turns out that releasing Hugh back into the collective only would have affected his own ship and wouldn't have spread to the entire galaxy-wide hive (as we saw in "Descent Pt I and II"). It's also pretty hard to predict how the virus would have actually affected them; Hugh's experience with individuality had a similar effect that the virus would have, but instead of simply DESTROYING them, it turned them into a band of sycophantic butt pirates.

Who the hell knows what would have happened with that virus plan? For all we know, it could have jump-started some kind of technical revolution and lead to some kind of Super-Borg that doesn't bother assimilating species or planets and just cocoons whole stars in giant energy-collecting dyson spheres.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

In hindsight, it turns out that releasing Hugh back into the collective only would have affected his own ship and wouldn't have spread to the entire galaxy-wide hive (as we saw in "Descent Pt I and II"). It's also pretty hard to predict how the virus would have actually affected them; Hugh's experience with individuality had a similar effect that the virus would have, but instead of simply DESTROYING them, it turned them into a band of sycophantic butt pirates.

Who the hell knows what would have happened with that virus plan? For all we know, it could have jump-started some kind of technical revolution and lead to some kind of Super-Borg that doesn't bother assimilating species or planets and just cocoons whole stars in giant energy-collecting dyson spheres.

Or the Borg could have massed a fleet of ships to solve the problem and then realized they'd been had. And then massed a bigger fleet to attack Starfleet or the AQ.

 

[The Old Mixer]

it turned them into a band of sycophantic butt pirates

Homophobic comments aren't necessary to making your point. When in doubt, keep it clean.

 

[Kevman7987]

Or it could have reversed the Borg so they start a technological revolution and start giving technology to people. "We are the Borg. Open your cargo bays. We have gifts." Borg start adding Santa hats on top of all of their ships...