Why is Starfleet mostly human?

[Sci]

It's not. It's been explicitly described as the Federation Starfleet throughout the TOS-VOY eras. Only in ENT was it a United Earth agency -- but, then, the fact that the ENT agency shared a name with the TOS one means nothing. After all, the Massachusetts State Navy is not the same agency as the United States Navy just because they both share the name "Navy."

Earth is part of the federation, so anything created by Earth or any other member world is part of the federation.

By that logic, the Ohio Department of Education must be part of the United States Department of Education. I assure you, it is not. The Federation practices federalism (hence the name) -- the division of authority between the central and member governments. Starfleet ships from TOS onwards are explicitly described as Federation starships, not Earth starships.

But that does not mean Starfleet is a federation run organization.

No, but the fact that Starfleet ships are always described as Federation starships, and the fact that there's no evidence that they're Earth ships, does.

Another piece of evidence that Starfleet is a Federation-run organization is that DS9's "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost" explicitly refers to the Federation President as being the commander-in-chief of Starfleet. In that same two-parter, mind you, the Federation President put Earth under martial law and put a Starfleet officer on every corner of Earth -- they take their orders from the Federation President and there is no reference to United Earth's government giving orders to Starfleet, or even being involved in President Jaresh-Inyo's decision to put Earth under martial law. This is consistent with Star Trek VI, which featured Starfleet explicitly taking its orders from the Federation President, and with Star Trek IV, in which the Federation Council had the authority to judge a Starfleet court-martial. None of which the UFP would be able to do if Starfleet was not a Federation-run organization.

The only time we have ever seen an organization called Starfleet taking orders from the United Earth government was in ENT -- and the fact that the United Earth Starfleet and the Federation Starfleet share a word in their name is no more evidence that they're the same legal entity than the fact that "Navy" is in the name of both the Royal Scots Navy and the Royal Navy of the United Kingdom means that they're the same organization. (They're not, BTW. The English and Scottish Navies were both abolished when England and Scotland merged to form the Kingdom of Great Britain.)

No. That's the main qualification for the Federation to contact you. It's a qualification for Federation Membership, but not the main one.

The passage you posted establishes my point.

Do you understand the difference between a "main qualification" and a "qualification?"

I wasn't contesting your claim that warp technology is generally a qualification for Federation Membership, merely contesting your claim that it is the primary qualification, which is what "main" would imply. There were any number of other qualifications just as or more important.

There is no evidence that member worlds share technology at all.

Yes, there is. We saw Federation scientists from numerous species engaging in scientific and technological exchange all the time, including TNG's "Qpid" (the Federation Archaeology Council), VOY's "Eye of the Needle" (Federation Astronomical Committee), TOS's "The Cloud Minders" (Federation Bureau of Industrialization), TOS's "The Trouble With Tribbles" (Federation Bureau of Agricultural Affairs), DS9's "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" (Federation Department of Cartography), TNG's "We'll Always Have Paris" and "Force of Nature" (the Federation Science Council), and in Star Trek II (the Federation Science Bureau, upon which Carol Marcus's multi-species project relied for funding).

The prime directive still applies even when worlds are part of the federation. Earth surpassed the Vulcans on their own.

There is no evidence of that whatsoever. The Prime Directive is consistently described as a Starfleet General Order prohibiting interference in the internal affairs of foreign states (i.e., the Klingon Empire) or in the natural development of pre-warp cultures. There's never, ever been a reference to the Prime Directive applying to Federation Member States, and as I just cited above, there are numerous examples of Federation species sharing science and technology, and developing new technologies together.

Showing humans living along side alien races shows the acceptance of beings who look different yet posses equal intelligence. Its an advanced way of thinking. That is what I would like to believe Trek fans believe in. The desire for all characters to look the same is not a Trek concept.

You say that, and yet you describe a Federation that is explicitly Earth-dominated -- where Earth and its fellow Federation Member worlds are not equal partners, but where Earth holds power over the entire UFP by controlling the Starfleet, and where knowledge is not shared by Earth with its partners. It's a very un-egalitarian Federation you describe -- one that lends itself to Human dominance rather than the principle of the equality of all species in the Federation.

 

[FemurBone]

There is no evidence that member worlds share technology at all. The prime directive still applies even when worlds are part of the federation. Earth surpassed the Vulcans on their own.

I don't know why they wouldn't trade information at some point. Heck, a Ferengi invented technology in 2370 (metaphasic shielding) that was thereafter adapted by Starfleet.

Its the whole interfering with the development of a civilization thing. Different worlds enter the federation at a different level of technilogical advancement.

Introducing tech to a world that isn't ready for it could be dangerous. I imagine there is some guidance provided to worlds who join the federation, but I imagine there would also have to be some sort of regulation regarding the sharing of technology to prevent it falling into the wrong hands.

With regards to the Ferengi, they aren't members of the federation and do not follow the prime directive. It would interfere with their profit margin.

 

[FemurBone]

Earth is part of the federation, so anything created by Earth or any other member world is part of the federation.

By that logic, the Ohio Department of Education must be part of the United States Department of Education. I assure you, it is not. The Federation practices federalism (hence the name) -- the division of authority between the central and member governments. Starfleet ships from TOS onwards are explicitly described as Federation starships, not Earth starships.

That's not the same logic. Ohio is to the United States what Earth is to the United Federation of Planets. Any Ohio institution can be considered part of the United States even though its run and operated from Ohio.

This is consistent with Star Trek VI, which featured Starfleet explicitly taking its orders from the Federation President, and with Star Trek IV, in which the Federation Council had the authority to judge a Starfleet court-martial. None of which the UFP would be able to do if Starfleet was not a Federation-run organization.

In a state of emergency the UFP would have those powers. During WW2 the US federal goverment commisioned factories to produce weapons for the war effort. But that's in a state of emergency, not all the time.

Do you understand the difference between a "main qualification" and a "qualification?"
I wasn't contesting your claim that warp technology is generally a qualification for Federation Membership, merely contesting your claim that it is the primary qualification, which is what "main" would imply. There were any number of other qualifications just as or more important.

It is the main qualification. It's not the only qualification but its the most important one.

Showing humans living along side alien races shows the acceptance of beings who look different yet posses equal intelligence. Its an advanced way of thinking. That is what I would like to believe Trek fans believe in. The desire for all characters to look the same is not a Trek concept.

You say that, and yet you describe a Federation that is explicitly Earth-dominated -- where Earth and its fellow Federation Member worlds are not equal partners, but where Earth holds power over the entire UFP by controlling the Starfleet, and where knowledge is not shared by Earth with its partners. It's a very un-egalitarian Federation you describe -- one that lends itself to Human dominance rather than the principle of the equality of all species in the Federation.

That is not what I described. I said Earth was more technologically advanced than the other worlds of the federation.

I never said the federation was Earth dominated.
I never said the other member worlds were not equal partners politically.
I merely said each world is at a different level of technological development.

and I never said Earth held power over the entire federation. I said Earth created and ran Starfleet, but they run it according to the rules and regulations of the federation. If you buy a car you own the car but you have to operate the car according to the rules of the state.

 

[Sci]

Earth is part of the federation, so anything created by Earth or any other member world is part of the federation.

By that logic, the Ohio Department of Education must be part of the United States Department of Education. I assure you, it is not. The Federation practices federalism (hence the name) -- the division of authority between the central and member governments. Starfleet ships from TOS onwards are explicitly described as Federation starships, not Earth starships.

That's not the same logic. Ohio is to the United States what Earth is to the United Federation of Planets. Any Ohio institution can be considered part of the United States even though its run and operated from Ohio.

That's not what's at issue, and it's clear hear that you do not understand what federalism means.

The United States Department of Education is a United States institution -- what we in the US often refer to as a federal institution in order to differentiate it from an American institution run by a state government. The Ohio Department of Education is clearly part of the United States, but it is not a United States institution -- that is, it is not a federal institution.

The Ohio Department of Education was created by, is funded by, is run by, and is answerable to, the government of the State of Ohio. It was not created by, is not run by, and is not answerable to the government of the United States. That's why it's the Ohio Department of Education, not the United States Department of Education.

So it is with Starfleet. Starfleet is a Federation institution. I don't mean that in the sense of "it is an institution that exists within the United Federation of Planets." I mean, it is an institution that is directly run by and answerable to the Federation government itself. The government of United Earth has nothing to do with the raising of, maintenance of, or operation of, the Federation Starfleet, and the Federation Starfleet is not answerable to the government of United Earth. It is the Federation Starfleet, not the United Earth Starfleet.

This is consistent with Star Trek VI, which featured Starfleet explicitly taking its orders from the Federation President, and with Star Trek IV, in which the Federation Council had the authority to judge a Starfleet court-martial. None of which the UFP would be able to do if Starfleet was not a Federation-run organization.

In a state of emergency the UFP would have those powers. During WW2 the US federal goverment commisioned factories to produce weapons for the war effort. But that's in a state of emergency, not all the time.

You are not quoting the relevant portion of my statement, and are therefore addressing the wrong thesis. This is the full section:

No, but the fact that Starfleet ships are always described as Federation starships, and the fact that there's no evidence that they're Earth ships, does.

Another piece of evidence that Starfleet is a Federation-run organization is that DS9's "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost" explicitly refers to the Federation President as being the commander-in-chief of Starfleet. In that same two-parter, mind you, the Federation President put Earth under martial law and put a Starfleet officer on every corner of Earth -- they take their orders from the Federation President and there is no reference to United Earth's government giving orders to Starfleet, or even being involved in President Jaresh-Inyo's decision to put Earth under martial law. This is consistent with Star Trek VI, which featured Starfleet explicitly taking its orders from the Federation President, and with Star Trek IV, in which the Federation Council had the authority to judge a Starfleet court-martial. None of which the UFP would be able to do if Starfleet was not a Federation-run organization.

The only time we have ever seen an organization called Starfleet taking orders from the United Earth government was in ENT -- and the fact that the United Earth Starfleet and the Federation Starfleet share a word in their name is no more evidence that they're the same legal entity than the fact that "Navy" is in the name of both the Royal Scots Navy and the Royal Navy of the United Kingdom means that they're the same organization. (They're not, BTW. The English and Scottish Navies were both abolished when England and Scotland merged to form the Kingdom of Great Britain.)

It is a given that the Federation would not normally declare martial law over one of its Member worlds except in a state of emergency. This is not in contention -- nor is it the point of my above statement. The point of the statement is that Starfleet is not an Earth organization (that is, is not raised by, operated by, or accountable to the government of Earth), but is a Federation organization. To that end, I cite numerous pieces of evidence that it is a Federation organization -- in the sense of being created by, operated by, and answerable to the UFP government directly, not the government of Earth.

Of those pieces of evidence I cite, only one is the result of a state of emergency. The other pieces of evidence apply routinely, at all times. We know the Federation Starfleet to be a Federation -- or, if you will, federal -- organization rather than a United Earth organization because:

* The Federation President is its commander-in-chief
* It takes orders from the Federation President
* The Federation Council can judge a Starfleet court-martial
* Starfleet puts Federation Member States under martial law on the say-so of the UFP President during a state of emergency, without regard to the will of the member state government

We have other pieces of evidence that the Starfleet is a UFP organization, not a UE organization, that I did not cite above.

* It is referred to as such -- i.e., as the Federation Starfleet -- by Data in "The Most Toys"
* Starfleet takes orders directly from the Federation Council in such episodes as "The Defector" (TNG) and in Star Trek: Insurrection

A state of emergency is mentioned only once, when the Federation President puts Earth under martial law. These other authorities the Federation government has over Starfleet are not associated with a state of emergency; the term is never used except in reference to martial law.

The Federation Starfleet answers to the Federation, not to Earth.

It is the main qualification. It's not the only qualification but its the most important one.

There is absolutely no evidence that it is the most important qualification. The only time we see it referred to is in reference to contacting the culture, and we have plenty of examples of warp-capable states that are deemed unsuitable for Federation Membership, including the Kes ("Attached") and a caste-practicing Bajor ("Accession"). Indeed, the evidence we've seen would tend to indicate that the social practices of the society in question, including whether or not they are egalitarian, whether or not they are a unified society under a single state, and whether or not they respect the rights the Federation believes all sentient entities are entitled to, seem to be given far more weight in those episodes than warp capacity.

Showing humans living along side alien races shows the acceptance of beings who look different yet posses equal intelligence. Its an advanced way of thinking. That is what I would like to believe Trek fans believe in. The desire for all characters to look the same is not a Trek concept.

You say that, and yet you describe a Federation that is explicitly Earth-dominated -- where Earth and its fellow Federation Member worlds are not equal partners, but where Earth holds power over the entire UFP by controlling the Starfleet, and where knowledge is not shared by Earth with its partners. It's a very un-egalitarian Federation you describe -- one that lends itself to Human dominance rather than the principle of the equality of all species in the Federation.

That is not what I described. I said Earth was more technologically advanced than the other worlds of the federation.

I never said the federation was Earth dominated.
I never said the other member worlds were not equal partners politically.
I merely said each world is at a different level of technological development.

and I never said Earth held power over the entire federation. I said Earth created and ran Starfleet, but they run it according to the rules and regulations of the federation. If you buy a car you own the car but you have to operate the car according to the rules of the state.

And that is a form of domination. Joining with other societies to form a new, unified society, but then refusing to grant those other societies access to your technology and knowledge, inevitably leads to the more technologically advanced society dominating the union. Further, you have described a Federation whose defensive agency is controlled, in your view, by Earth -- rendering every other Federation Member reliant upon Earth to provide its Starfleet to protect them. This, too, creates an unequal partnership. It is as though you are saying that all worlds are equal, but some worlds are more equal than others.

and I never said Earth held power over the entire federation. I said Earth created and ran Starfleet, but they run it according to the rules and regulations of the federation. If you buy a car you own the car but you have to operate the car according to the rules of the state.

This especially is important. If the entire Federation relies upon the Earth Starfleet to protect them, then what's to keep Earth from forcing the rest of the Federation behave according to its will? If you own a car, you have to operate it according to the rules of the state because you and the other members of your society have joined together to create the state, and you have, as a society, given the state the authority to use force against you or anyone else who violates the law.

But if you grant exclusive authority to use force to one person in society, then the rest of society is denied the legal ability to use force against him if he begins to abuse his authority. Similarly, if only Earth can defend the Federation, then what barrier is there, really, to prevent Earth from abusing its power and dominating the UFP? The rest of the Federation would have to rely upon Earth's goodwill. But that's not equality. Even if Earth never actually abuses that authority, the simple fact that it would be granted the capacity to do so by putting the armed forces of the entire UFP under its control would create an un-equal union.

It would be like putting the US Armed Forces under the exclusive control of the government of Texas. Even if we trust the Texan government -- why should they get more of a say in national defense than Ohio, or Massachusetts, or Oregon, or California? Can you really imagine the Governor of New York deferring to the Governor of Texas over New York's defense? I cannot. Indeed, I cannot imagine the peoples of the other 49 states being in any way happy about such a thing -- they would want national defense to fall under the exclusive jurisdiction of the government that they had a vote in forming, the federal government (with them being able to vote for members of the federal legislature and for the federal executive, the President). They would not be happy about the idea of the authority to control national defense being left in the hands of the Governor of Texas, whom none of them had a choice in voting for, even if he promised to always do what the US President asked him too. After all, if all American forces are ultimately loyal to Texas, then they're not really American forces, they're Texan forces.

That's why we put the armed forces under the control of the federal government -- because that way, it's an equal partnership, and no one state is more equal than others. It's under the control of a government that all of the citizens of all of the states had an equal say in forming through the democratic process, and the armed forces are loyal to the entire Union, not just one state.

You may not realize it, but you are describing a Federation where Earth rules and the others have to just hope that Earth always agrees to do what they ask it to do, because none of the others will ever have the capacity to stop Earth if it decides it no longer wants to be "enlightened." That's not equality.

Its the whole interfering with the development of a civilization thing. Different worlds enter the federation at a different level of technilogical advancement.

Yes, but the Federation only allows in worlds that are peaceful, unified, protect sentients' rights, and are egalitarian. In other words, yes, their technology may be less advanced, but their political culture is not. It is the political culture that determines when it is safe for a culture to possess a technology, and the political cultures that are allowed into the UFP -- what we would call liberal democracies -- are those that can accommodate advanced technology without exploding.

Introducing tech to a world that isn't ready for it could be dangerous. I imagine there is some guidance provided to worlds who join the federation, but I imagine there would also have to be some sort of regulation regarding the sharing of technology to prevent it falling into the wrong hands.

Yes, there is. It's called "Don't let them into the Federation if they're likely to blow themselves up when we give them a holosuite."

 

[FemurBone]

That's not what's at issue, and it's clear hear that you do not understand what federalism means.

I understand perfectly what federalism means.

So it is with Starfleet. Starfleet is a Federation institution. I don't mean that in the sense of "it is an institution that exists within the United Federation of Planets." I mean, it is an institution that is directly run by and answerable to the Federation government itself. The government of United Earth has nothing to do with the raising of, maintenance of, or operation of, the Federation Starfleet, and the Federation Starfleet is not answerable to the government of United Earth. It is the Federation Starfleet, not the United Earth Starfleet.

We're going to have to agree to disagree. There's plenty of evidence that suggest otherwise. The majority of Starfleet personel are human, Starfleet head quarters is on Earth and Starfleet academy is located on Earth. Hell in this new movie the Enterprise is built on Earth. All this suggest an Earth run organization.

You are not quoting the relevant portion of my statement, and are therefore addressing the wrong thesis. This is the full section:

I'm not going to quote all that. This is a message board not myspace. You're supposed to make your points brief.

There is absolutely no evidence that it is the most important qualification. The only time we see it referred to is in reference to contacting the culture, and we have plenty of examples of warp-capable states that are deemed unsuitable for Federation Membership, including the Kes ("Attached") and a caste-practicing Bajor ("Accession"). Indeed, the evidence we've seen would tend to indicate that the social practices of the society in question, including whether or not they are egalitarian, whether or not they are a unified society under a single state, and whether or not they respect the rights the Federation believes all sentient entities are entitled to, seem to be given far more weight in those episodes than warp capacity.

As I stated in my post, warp capability is the main qualification, but I never said it was the only one.

And that is a form of domination. Joining with other societies to form a new, unified society, but then refusing to grant those other societies access to your technology and knowledge, inevitably leads to the more technologically advanced society dominating the union. Further, you have described a Federation whose defensive agency is controlled, in your view, by Earth -- rendering every other Federation Member reliant upon Earth to provide its Starfleet to protect them. This, too, creates an unequal partnership. It is as though you are saying that all worlds are equal, but some worlds are more equal than others.
what's to keep Earth from forcing the rest of the Federation behave according to its will?

California's economy and population are greater than the other states in the US, but that doesn't make California dominant. It's position as a state is no greater than any other state. The same goes for New York. All states fall under the same federal laws.

Just because Earth as greater technilogical capability doesn't mean Earthlings dominate the federation. The whole point is humans have evolved beyond that. Humans can have greater technological capability and yet share an equal partnership with a less technologically advanced world.

if only Earth can defend the Federation, then what barrier is there, really, to prevent Earth from abusing its power and dominating the UFP? The rest of the Federation would have to rely upon Earth's goodwill. But that's not equality. Even if Earth never actually abuses that authority, the simple fact that it would be granted the capacity to do so by putting the armed forces of the entire UFP under its control would create an un-equal union..

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.
I don't consider that unequal. Every world in the federation has the freedom to develop itself if it chooses to do so. Citizens of the federation are free to live on whatever world they want and are free to attend educational institutions on other worlds. There is no reason why member worlds cannot develope their own technology if they choose to do so.

Giving a world free technology it hasn't developed itself is not a good idea even if said world is qualified to be a member of the federation.

Yes, but the Federation only allows in worlds that are peaceful, unified, protect sentients' rights, and are egalitarian. In other words, yes, their technology may be less advanced, but their political culture is not. It is the political culture that determines when it is safe for a culture to possess a technology, and the political cultures that are allowed into the UFP -- what we would call liberal democracies -- are those that can accommodate advanced technology without exploding.

Again, I disagree. Technology is only safe when its created by the society using it. The sudden introduction of advanced technology from an outside source can change the political culture of a world.

 

[Skywalker]

So it is with Starfleet. Starfleet is a Federation institution. I don't mean that in the sense of "it is an institution that exists within the United Federation of Planets." I mean, it is an institution that is directly run by and answerable to the Federation government itself. The government of United Earth has nothing to do with the raising of, maintenance of, or operation of, the Federation Starfleet, and the Federation Starfleet is not answerable to the government of United Earth. It is the Federation Starfleet, not the United Earth Starfleet.

We're going to have to agree to disagree. There's plenty of evidence that suggest otherwise. The majority of Starfleet personel are human, Starfleet head quarters is on Earth and Starfleet academy is located on Earth. Hell in this new movie the Enterprise is built on Earth. All this suggest an Earth run organization.

The capital of the Federation is located in Paris, on Earth. Does this mean the Federation is a human institution run solely by Earth?

 

[Sci]

So it is with Starfleet. Starfleet is a Federation institution. I don't mean that in the sense of "it is an institution that exists within the United Federation of Planets." I mean, it is an institution that is directly run by and answerable to the Federation government itself. The government of United Earth has nothing to do with the raising of, maintenance of, or operation of, the Federation Starfleet, and the Federation Starfleet is not answerable to the government of United Earth. It is the Federation Starfleet, not the United Earth Starfleet.

We're going to have to agree to disagree. There's plenty of evidence that suggest otherwise. The majority of Starfleet personel are human,

1. That we've seen. But we've only seen four ships/bases -- the 1701, the 1701-D, DS9/Defiant, and Voyager. DS9 made it clear that Starfleet has hundreds and hundreds of ships, and DS9 and TOS both established that there are Starfleet ships crewed by majority non-Human crews. And on top of that, there are any number of species that resemble Humans, including Betazoids, Bajorans (from a distance), Ardanans, Capellans, Risians, Ramatans, Iotians, Acamarians, and Deltans, so there are plenty of background officers that look Human who might not be. We don't have enough data here to conclude that most Starfleet officers are Human, quite frankly.

2. Not all Humans are from Earth. In fact, I would be unsurprised if more than a few Human settlements on other planets declared independence from Earth and later joined the Federation as politically separate states in their own right, as the novels posit Alpha Centauri, Deneva, and Cestus III to have done.

Starfleet head quarters is on Earth

The Pentagon is in Virginia; that doesn't make the United States Armed Forces a collection of Virginian organizations.

Starfleet academy is located on Earth.

And on Beta Aquilae II, Beta Ursae Minor II, and Psi Upsilon III.

The US Naval Academy is located in Maryland, and the United States Military Academy is located in New York. That doesn't make the Navy a Maryland organization or the Army a New York organization.

Hell in this new movie the Enterprise is built on Earth.

And in real life, the USS Enterprise was built in Virginia. This, again, does not make the United States Navy a Virginian organization.

And in the Trekverse, the Enterprise-D, Defiant, and Voyager were all built at the Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards in orbit of Mars. This does not mean that Starfleet is a Martian organization.

All this suggest an Earth run organization.

No, it suggests an Earth-based organization. The United States Navy may be Virginia-based, but this does not make it Virginia-run. I assure you, the Governor of the Commonwealth of Virginia does not get to deploy the USS Abraham Lincoln to Iraq.

I'm not going to quote all that. This is a message board not myspace. You're supposed to make your points brief.

Your points can be as long as you want; you are only refusing to refute an overwhelming preponderance of evidence in favor of my claim and opposing yours.

As I stated in my post, warp capability is the main qualification, but I never said it was the only one.

And as I said, there is no evidence that it is the main qualification.

California's economy and population are greater than the other states in the US, but that doesn't make California dominant.

No, but California shares its technology with the rest of the Union and doesn't get control over the United States Armed Forces, as you claim Earth does with the UFP. If the technology developed in Silicon Valley never left California's borders and Governor Schwarzenegger had the exclusive legal authority to dispatch the military, I assure you that in no rational way could California not be considered to dominate the Union.

Just because Earth as greater technilogical capability doesn't mean Earthlings dominate the federation. The whole point is humans have evolved beyond that. Humans can have greater technological capability and yet share an equal partnership with a less technologically advanced world.

But that's not a partnership. A partnership means that you have to share. Otherwise, it is a hierarchical relationship. If you are equals, then you share; it is the inevitable consequence of being equal polities.

Besides, as I noted above, your claim that technology isn't shared is refuted by the NUMEROUS examples I cited of technology and scientific knowledge being freely disseminated throughout the UFP.

if only Earth can defend the Federation, then what barrier is there, really, to prevent Earth from abusing its power and dominating the UFP? The rest of the Federation would have to rely upon Earth's goodwill. But that's not equality. Even if Earth never actually abuses that authority, the simple fact that it would be granted the capacity to do so by putting the armed forces of the entire UFP under its control would create an un-equal union..

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

I don't consider that unequal.

Yes, but you're wrong. If the other Federation worlds have to rely on Earth's goodwill to protect them and not to hurt them, that's not equality, that's domination. Equality is if Earth has to rely on the same Federation government that its people has the same say in creating that every other world does in order to be protected.

Every world in the federation has the freedom to develop itself if it chooses to do so. Citizens of the federation are free to live on whatever world they want and are free to attend educational institutions on other worlds. There is no reason why member worlds cannot develope their own technology if they choose to do so.

Giving a world free technology it hasn't developed itself is not a good idea even if said world is qualified to be a member of the federation.

Why not? If they have a mature political culture, then they can handle that. It's not like the simple act of inventing a technology magically causes a culture to be able to handle it. It is the political culture that matters, not the native possession of technology.

Yes, but the Federation only allows in worlds that are peaceful, unified, protect sentients' rights, and are egalitarian. In other words, yes, their technology may be less advanced, but their political culture is not. It is the political culture that determines when it is safe for a culture to possess a technology, and the political cultures that are allowed into the UFP -- what we would call liberal democracies -- are those that can accommodate advanced technology without exploding.

Again, I disagree. Technology is only safe when its created by the society using it. The sudden introduction of advanced technology from an outside source can change the political culture of a world.

Not really. It changes the capacities of a pre-existing political culture. Political cultures that are stable and respect what we would call human rights are more than capable of handing the introduction of new technologies without a problem.

To put it another way: Great Britain did not invent the computer. Guess what? Computers haven't hurt the United Kingdom any.

 

[Captain Fine]

I can't even believe this argument is taking place. The question about why Starfleet is mostly human is relevant. We all know the true answer is BUDGET and the second is people would rather see humans in their movies. An an-universe explanation is that ships may be manned by one species, as we have already seen in the past.

ENT confused things a bit by having an Earth Starfleet prior to the founding of the Federation. But I don't see that as a big issue. It's clear to me that when the Federation was formed, the Earth Starfleet, the Vulcan Starfleet, the Andorian Starfleet and the Tellarite Starfleet were all merged into one. Think about it, Enterprise NX-01 did not have shields, Andorians and Vulcans did.

Sci all your arguments and everything are great and Absolutely Correct(TM).

About the Baku thing, since they HAD warp drive and decided not to use it, the Prime Directive didn't apply, IIRC. Though I could be remembering wrong. Regardless, I'm sure they could have joined the Federation if they'd wanted to.

 

[skep155]

Someone else cracked it when they said species that live in similar environments obviously find it easier to work together. I think an interesting idea for writers to use is all alien starfleet vessels, comprised of crew that live in different atmospheric pressures and breath different gases.

 

[Cdr MacDuff]

Yep, BUDGET is the real answer.

 

[jdp13]

SCI we're on the same page with the UFP and Starfleet. It's how I've always seen it. That is why to me it still seems odd to have such a overly heavy human ratio portrayed at Starfleet. Yeah, yeah I get the whole budget thing (which I don't buy on this movie) and the whole "because aliens are less relateable" argument, but I still feel that even a litte more mix of other Federation worlds would have been appropriate. I'll even give them that humans could be the largest majority of Starfleet (our whole "need to explore and our thrist for knowledge" thing), but I'd like to see even more in the background to let us know they're out there.

So it is with Starfleet. Starfleet is a Federation institution. I don't mean that in the sense of "it is an institution that exists within the United Federation of Planets." I mean, it is an institution that is directly run by and answerable to the Federation government itself. The government of United Earth has nothing to do with the raising of, maintenance of, or operation of, the Federation Starfleet, and the Federation Starfleet is not answerable to the government of United Earth. It is the Federation Starfleet, not the United Earth Starfleet.

We're going to have to agree to disagree. There's plenty of evidence that suggest otherwise. The majority of Starfleet personel are human, Starfleet head quarters is on Earth and Starfleet academy is located on Earth. Hell in this new movie the Enterprise is built on Earth. All this suggest an Earth run organization.

The capital of the Federation is located in Paris, on Earth. Does this mean the Federation is a human institution run solely by Earth?

I've always looked at Earth as the "Capitol" planet of the Federation. That is where the President of the Federation is and that is where Starfleet Academy is (at least what would appear to be the main campus).

 

[Skywalker]

We're going to have to agree to disagree. There's plenty of evidence that suggest otherwise. The majority of Starfleet personel are human, Starfleet head quarters is on Earth and Starfleet academy is located on Earth. Hell in this new movie the Enterprise is built on Earth. All this suggest an Earth run organization.

The capital of the Federation is located in Paris, on Earth. Does this mean the Federation is a human institution run solely by Earth?

I've always looked at Earth as the "Capitol" planet of the Federation. That is where the President of the Federation is and that is where Starfleet Academy is (at least what would appear to be the main campus).

I agree, my comment was meant to be facetious more than anything else.

 

[Jasper Sierra]

Lets face it, one of the things humans do well is breed. While other species have greater strength, others telepathy, etc, but we can get blinding drunk and still procreate. I had assumed part of it was that humans were the rabbits of sentient beings. Budgets are also good alien contraceptive too.

 

[Islander]

Lets face it, one of the things humans do well is breed. While other species have greater strength, others telepathy, etc, but we can get blinding drunk and still procreate. I had assumed part of it was that humans were the rabbits of sentient beings. Budgets are also good alien contraceptive too.

Six billion Vulcans died. I don't think they had any such problem previously.

 

[Jasper Sierra]

Lets face it, one of the things humans do well is breed. While other species have greater strength, others telepathy, etc, but we can get blinding drunk and still procreate. I had assumed part of it was that humans were the rabbits of sentient beings. Budgets are also good alien contraceptive too.

Six billion Vulcans died. I don't think they had any such problem previously.

True, but I always got the feeling there were many more planets with many human colonies versus any other individual species. But what do I know, an expert I am not.

 

[EnsignRicky]

Because the rest of the galaxy is our bitch. And they know it.