I think the way that Discovery sets about framing the divide of Sarek and Spock is that, after a decade plus of separation, both want to bridge the gap and neither can, out of both uncertainty if the other will forgive or their own pride in refusing to take the first step - neither would refuse the other’s efforts at reconciliation, but neither can bring themselves to take that step.
Spoilers Why is Sarek Such a Bad Father?
- Thread starter Commishsleer
- Start date
So what does Spock need to apologise for?
Does he really need to say he's sorry for joining Starfleet?
Or did he do something else --maybe for sassing the VSA for and actually embarrassing Sarek if Spock did that or is that just a nuTrek thing?
The difference between Chris Pike and Sarek in regards to Spock. Chris Pike says he doesn't have the words to describe what Spock means to him when Spock says he's going to leave with Michael. Sarek doesn't even bother to say goodbye when he's on the same ship.
It’s not necessarily that Spock need apologize for anything - that really is the crux of things, that Sarek caused the riff with his actions and choices. But the first step to reconciliation on Spock’s side is to let Sarek know that he would accept an effort at reconciliation - in keeping the distance between them, in not making overtures of his own, the message that one could draw from this is that he has closed the door to reconciliation and has accepted Sarek being absent from his life.
Y’know, it’s the question of someone who’s gone no-contact with any of their family - is there a point where you would reopen that door, even make them know you’re willing to discuss letting them back in? If neither know how to open that door, if one wants to apologize and the other wants to forgive, what do they need to do in order to know that the door can be opened?
Y’know, it’s the question of someone who’s gone no-contact with any of their family - is there a point where you would reopen that door, even make them know you’re willing to discuss letting them back in? If neither know how to open that door, if one wants to apologize and the other wants to forgive, what do they need to do in order to know that the door can be opened?
Yes but how is that Spock's fault?
Spock is not responsible for Sarek's dodgy deals.
Did Spock even know about the deal?
The problem is that Sarek has been dealing and dodging about instead of standing up for his ideals that Vulcans should not be racist. And give up on the VSA for both of them if necessary.
Spock is at least standing up for his ideals. That he is not lesser because of his Mother. Its not all nobility on Spock's part though. Imagine going day after day of hearing everyone say at work - you're doing well for a half-breed or we better check his work because of his bad genetics.
We don't know for sure, although I suspect he didn't.
If he had, he would probably have felt bad that Burnham lost her place in the VSA because of him.
And I'm sure Sarek was angry and embarrassed enough about having to make the deal in the first place, that he didn't tell Spock about it. Hell, he didn't even tell Burnham until much later...and that took some convincing.
As for Sarek's supposed "racism" (which I dispute, as Amanda clearly would never have married him if he had any), he's hardly alone in that. Look at all the other Vulcans we've seen - Spock's childhood bullies, the head of the Vulcan Science Academy, pretty much every Vulcan we ever saw on ENT - that were clearly prejudiced against humans.
Okay, so perhaps Sarek wasn't the greatest father ever. But at least he got over it. He changed. He eventually did mend fences with Spock. That counts for something, doesn't it?
He literally scorned his own son for being "too human" when his son was a literal new born.
"Because everyone else is" is not an excuse for being a bigot.
I'm actually suspecting that scene. Sybok could well have made it up, or at least tilted it so Spock would be more affected by it.
I mean, come on, Vulcan babies don't cry?
That's an excuse? He looks down on his son as a human from the day he is born. And he is the ambassador to Earth. So he is a bigot, his race is bigoted, and this is the high minded ally of Earth?
On his death bed. Thankfully he got better and that led to a repair, for a time.
And then TNG undid it.They seemed on decent terms in ST IV.
I suppose looking at Discovery where Michael is clearly the star its cool to have her adoptive parents love her more than their own child. However where that child is a beloved franchise character I just can't help but hate Sarek a bit for it. At least I don't hate Michael for it.
I think they could have written Sarek a bit better - he practically fawns over Michael begging her forgiveness all over the place, showing emotion, hugging her. Sarek doesn't want her to help Spock because it may risk her career, which is sort of understandable if Spock's life wasn't on the line. He wants to send Spock into the hands of Section 31 without trying for any diplomatic intervention or even a lawyer while Sarek uses all his influence to help Michael again and again.
However when Amanda and Michael defy him to help save Spock he doesn't berate them afterwards either because they were right or because they were doing what he couldn't bring himself to do.
I mean Spock's life wouldn't have been in danger if the Red Angel were not in his life because of Michael.
I think they could have written Sarek a bit better - he practically fawns over Michael begging her forgiveness all over the place, showing emotion, hugging her. Sarek doesn't want her to help Spock because it may risk her career, which is sort of understandable if Spock's life wasn't on the line. He wants to send Spock into the hands of Section 31 without trying for any diplomatic intervention or even a lawyer while Sarek uses all his influence to help Michael again and again.
However when Amanda and Michael defy him to help save Spock he doesn't berate them afterwards either because they were right or because they were doing what he couldn't bring himself to do.
I mean Spock's life wouldn't have been in danger if the Red Angel were not in his life because of Michael.
I see where you’re coming from, but I don’t find it very incongruous. Especially when you consider Spock and Sarek’s relationship in Journey to Babel. Even without Michael Burnham, we know they had a falling out.
I don't think Sarek fawned over Burnham in so much as just treated her in a way he knew humans behaved towards their children. I think Sarek felt he had to be harder on Spock to show that a half human/vulcan child could be raised to successfully overcome their human emotions and become a fully productive member of vulcan society. I think Sarek saw how hard it was for spock to be accepted because of his humanness and doubled down on the vulcan parenting to logic it out of him. This however just caused Sarek to become cold and distant towards Spock and in turn Spock to resent his fathers parenting.
The fact that Sarek chose Spock over Burnham for admittance to the VSA speaks volumes about which of his children was Sarek's favourite.
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