Why is batman always black in the films?

[Green Lantern]

As a short man myself (I'm 5'6"), and of a rather stocky build, I've always identified with Wolverine. He's the embodiment of big things coming in tiny packages. It would be great if they were to recast Wolverine with an actor more in line with who Logan is supposed to be.

I have no grudge against Hugh Jackman, he's been a fine Wolverine and even looks the part, but the fact that he's too tall for the role does take a little bit away from the character. You lose that aspect of Wolverine's personality.

Hugh Jackman is great as Wolverine, I hope he stays in the role for a long time. And I don't really care about Jackman being talker than wolverine is in the comics.

Personaly, I wouldn't be tookeen on a black daredevil. his sking is meant to be a bit pale, it's part of his look. Spider-man wears a full face mask, and in the ultimate universe he's black, so I wouldn't have a problem with them making him black, but the whole thing would wreak of Marvel trying to be more mixed with their races.

Why in 2012 would that be a bad thing?

For a start, it would not be true to the comics, and Marvel would just be more shallow than before. Face it, daredevil is a white superhero, it just would not work if he was black. Spider-man is also a white superhero 9however his ultimate universe counterpart is black). The point is the whole thing would be painfully PC. Why can't people just get over this race thing and accept the majority of superheroes are going to be white because the US' majority is white. It does not mean all superheroes need to be white in films, but if they're white in the comics, why bother to make them black in the films? On the other hand, Kingpin's white in the comics, but was black in the film, and he was playedreally well. Spawn, Green Lantern (John Stewart), Storm, Steel, and Batwing are all black, just make a film about them if you feel there's not ennougth black superhero films (to be honest, I think they should've given Spawn annother crack by now, they should've chosen a more black actress to play Storm, and maybe they should have used John in the GL film.

 

[Christopher]

...but the whole thing would wreak of Marvel trying to be more mixed with their races.

Why in 2012 would that be a bad thing?

Exactly. Like Greg said, it's just correcting an anachronism, like retelling the Fantastic Four's origin so that it's no longer about trying to beat the Soviets to the Moon, or updating Tony Stark's captivity and injury from the Vietnam War to Afghanistan. It's updating the story to work in the modern world instead of being a relic of the past.

Hugh Jackman is great as Wolverine, I hope he stays in the role for a long time. And I don't really care about Jackman being talker than wolverine is in the comics.

Then why do you care so much about what skin color an actor is? You have some oddly arbitrary double standards, and you don't seem to be noticing the contradictions in your own beliefs.

Face it, daredevil is a white superhero, it just would not work if he was black.

Why????? What is there about Daredevil's personality or origins that has anything remotely to do with his race? It's already been quite well-argued that since his father was a boxer, making him black would fit perfectly.

The point is the whole thing would be painfully PC.

This again? We've covered this. "PC" is a meaningless shibboleth that people who don't understand or like diversity use to dismiss the idea. It's not a real argument, it's just spouting a buzzword to avoid having to actually come up with a legitimate response.

Why can't people just get over this race thing and accept the majority of superheroes are going to be white because the US' majority is white.

Oh, yeah, because of course people with superhuman powers and/or tragic origin stories that drive them to fight bad guys while wearing colorful costumes represent a typical statistical sampling of the US population.

If anything, I'd expect there to be a lot more minorities in the superhero community than among the general population, because it's just the kind of cultural fringe group that would attract outsiders or people who identify with the downtrodden.

Also, it depends on what part of the US you're talking about. The Marvel Universe is focused primarily around New York City, while Metropolis and Gotham City are both pastiches of NYC. And whites are not the majority population in NYC, making up only about 45% of the total as of the 2000 census. More than a quarter of the city's population is black, and more than a quarter is Hispanic of any race. If you're portraying New York City, the most multicultural city in the US, then to portray it as overwhelmingly white in its population is grievously ignorant. (The sitcom Friends was often critiqued for its ludicrous portrayal of a New York where nonwhites were almost nonexistent.)

 

[Kegg]

Why can't people just get over this race thing and accept the majority of superheroes are going to be white because the US' majority is white.

And the majority of superheroes still is white. If Donald Glover was made Spider-Man, the majority of superheroes would be white. If Michael Dorn was Batman, the majority of superheroes would be white. There'd need to be a lot more non-white performances for the superabudance of white superheroes to be challenged in their majority status, and - between Chris Hemsworth, Robert Downey Jr., Chris Evans, Andrew Garfield and Henry Cavill - you could not wish for a more vanilla line-up of actors who are playing superheroes in movies that'll be released in coming years. And that's not even counting whoever the heck will be in the next X-Men film as I never keep track of those, and it excludes speculation like 'a white guy will probably be the lead in Ant Man and Guardians of the Galaxy too!'

This again? We've covered this. "PC" is a meaningless shibboleth that people who don't understand or like diversity use to dismiss the idea.

And to the extent PC can be said to mean something?

...It's more or less IDIC. I've heard people complain about Star Trek being too PC over the years (TNG especially) that it's odd to hear it being thrown around as a bad thing on a Trek forum since it's a kind of attitude Trek at least in theory prided itself on.

 

[Christopher]

^As I said above, "political correctness" is a term that originated in Stalinist Russia. It meant going along with the party line so that you wouldn't get thrown in prison or executed. Accusing someone of being "PC" is accusing them of lying, of claiming to hold a belief they don't actually hold because it's politically convenient to pretend to it. It's an odious, insulting term, an ad hominem attack used to discredit and dismiss arguments in favor of inclusion rather than honestly engaging with them. At best, it's an honest misunderstanding -- people who aren't comfortable with diversity might genuinely be unable to comprehend that anyone could sincerely want more diversity, and thus assume it can only be some sort of reluctant advocacy embraced as a matter of political convenience. Either way, it's unfair and wrong -- at best missing the point profoundly, at worst deliberately trying to discredit the point.

 

[Turtletrekker]

The Thing has been established as Jewish, IIRC. Though I doubt Lee and Kirby originally thought of him as Jewish.

Oh, they pretty much DID think of him as Jewish.


Stan Lee was born Stanley Martin Lieber in New York City on December 28, 1922, in the apartment of his Romanian-born Jewish immigrant parents.

Jack Kirby was born Jacob Kurtzberg on August 28, 1917, on the Lower East Side of Manhattan in New York City, where he was raised. His parents, Rose and Benjamin Kurtzberg, were Austrian Jewish immigrants.

The Thing is Benjamin Jacob Grimm. Benjamin and Jacob are both VERY typical Jewish names.

Pretty good evidence that The Everlovin' Blue-eyed Thing was Jewish all along.

Just because Lee and Kirby were Jewish is doesn't mean the Thing or any of their characters were meant to be Jewish.

Benjamin and Jacob are popular names with a lot of people(Ben and Jake even), especially those who's cultural background includes the Judeo-Christian bible. My own name is of Hebrew origin, but I'm not Jewish. I've met quite a few non Jewish Bens and Jakes. Not sure if "Jacob" was even established Lee and Kirby. "Benjamin J. Grimm" is what I remember them calling him. Jacob might been added later as a nod to Kirby.

Grimm is a common German name and dates back to the 8th Century. (Which doesn't discount it being a name used by German Jews.) A lot of the Thing's personality and even one of his catch phrases ( What a revolting developement) were taken from the Riley character played on radio/film and TV by William Bendix in "The Life of Riley". Riley is not a Jewish name. The Thing's tough guy persona is also stock character, seen in many works of entertainment and given all types of ethnic backgrounds. (Though usually Lower class)

Here is a Jack Kirby sketch of Ben Grimm circa 1976. As I understand it, Kirby always intended for Grimm to be Jewish as Grimm's life and personality were based loosly Kirby's own.

Now, I would accept that with, for example, Captain America...<snip>, having a black version might be incompatible with their history and background. That is, Cap was created during the second world war, when there was segregation in the US Army and black soldiers were treated more poorly than their white comrades. So, if you had a black Steve Rogers, realistically, he would not have been the visual focus for the war effort the way he was in the recent movie, white officers might have been loathe to obey him etc. You would have had an interesting movie but quite a different one.

There actually is an in-continuity WWII era black Captain America. But as it's not Steve Rogers, it's a more apt comparison to John Stewart or Miles Morales.

 

[Captaindemotion]

Face it, daredevil is a white superhero, it just would not work if he was black. Spider-man is also a white superhero 9however his ultimate universe counterpart is black). The point is the whole thing would be painfully PC. Why can't people just get over this race thing and accept the majority of superheroes are going to be white because the US' majority is white. It does not mean all superheroes need to be white in films, but if they're white in the comics, why bother to make them black in the films? On the other hand, Kingpin's white in the comics, but was black in the film, and he was playedreally well.

Okay, can you tell me what part of Daredevi's character is so intrinsically white? What is there about his persona, his identity and his abilities mean that he could only be played by or drawn as a white man? Is he a member of the KKK or something?

And why is it okay to make Kingpin black (and I happen to think that Michael Clarke Duncan was a great choice) but not DD?

In the comics, Daredevil is smaller and slighter than Ben Affleck, with a different hair colour. Bullseye, unlike Colin Farrell, is not Irish. Elektra, unlike Jennifer Garner, is Greek. You can accept all of that and the change of Kingpin's colour, but not that of DD? Why not?

Off the top of my head, most actors to play superheroes have been quite different from how the characters have been drawn.

Toby Maguire has a rounder face and goofier smile than most comic Peter Parkers. Michael Keaton is smaller, skinnier, less classically handsome and has a receding hairline unlike most depictions of Bruce Wayne. Val Kilmer is blond. Tony Stark has usually been drawn to look like Errol Flynn or a young Timothy Dalton (and Johnny Depp in the Ultimates). Robert Downey Jr was older, shorter and more craggy-faced but nearly everyone loves his depiction.

Mark Ruffalo, Ed Norton, Eric Bana and Bill Bixby look nothing like each other but we're all expected to accept that they're an accurate take on the same man. Ian McKellen has less muscle and physique than how Magneto used to be drawn. Patrick Stewart (who arguably looks more like his comic character than 99% of comic cast-actors) plays the New York-born Prof X with an English accent. Jackman is a foot taller than the Wolverine of the comics. Alfred Molina, unlike the comics' Doctor Octopus, looks nothing like Elton John. Harvey Dent is usually drawn with brown hair, not Aaron Eckhart's blond hair. And the Joker in the comics has genuinely white skin and green hair, unlike Heath Ledger's take (nor was he as paunchy as Jack Nicholson).

Most people's objection to Keanu Reeves' depiction of John Constantine was not his hair colour or accent but the fact that he totally failed to capture John's cynical wise-cracking persona.

Given all of that, I can't see how changing the colour of characters - so long as the actor captures what makes up the character's persona (imagine a young Denzil as Batman or a young Will Smith as Spider-man).

I'd argue that the two comic movie adaptations which look most like the actual comic come to life are Dick Tracy and Popeye. And how often do you see them topping people's list of their favourite comic book movies?

 

[JoeZhang]

There actually is an in-continuity WWII era black Captain America. But as it's not Steve Rogers, it's a more apt comparison to John Stewart or Miles Morales.

Not really - he's never Captain America - in fact you could say that's the whole point of the story, he can never be Captain America against the racial politics of the story.

 

[Captaindemotion]

There actually is an in-continuity WWII era black Captain America. But as it's not Steve Rogers, it's a more apt comparison to John Stewart or Miles Morales.

Not really - he's never Captain America - in fact you could say that's the whole point of the story, he can never be Captain America against the racial politics of the story.

I hadn't heard of this character until I saw the link. It's very interesting. But it reinforces what I said in the previous page, if you'd had a black man playing Captain America in the movie, you'd have to have a very different story.

 

[JoeZhang]

There actually is an in-continuity WWII era black Captain America. But as it's not Steve Rogers, it's a more apt comparison to John Stewart or Miles Morales.

Not really - he's never Captain America - in fact you could say that's the whole point of the story, he can never be Captain America against the racial politics of the story.

I hadn't heard of this character until I saw the link. It's very interesting. But it reinforces what I said in the previous page, if you'd had a black man playing Captain America in the movie, you'd have to have a very different story.

Well... you could have a Black Captain America in the present (and they did do a little read story where Sam Wilson becomes Captain America for two issues and an rather unfortunate incident where they had a black bucky - who was quickly renamed to Battlestar) but yes it would be an entirely different story given the historical context to have a black WW2 Captain America

 

[Christopher]

Off the top of my head, most actors to play superheroes have been quite different from how the characters have been drawn.

Yeah, it's hard to think of examples where the faces really match. I think Henry Cavill is a pretty good match for how Curt Swan drew Superman, at least in the jawline, though his hairline doesn't look right. Otherwise, most Superman actors haven't looked as close to the comics counterpart. As I said, George Clooney did look plausibly like Bruce Wayne, more than anyone else.

Definitely Patrick Stewart is a good match for Xavier, though he doesn't have Xavier's heavy, angular eyebrows. Really Xavier looks more like Yul Brynner.

I don't think anyone who's played Spider-Man in live action really looks much like the comics' Peter Parker. Andrew Garfield is more the right type than Tobey Maguire was, but still different. (Although I always felt that the character design for Peter in the '94 animated series looked surprisingly like Nicholas Hammond, who played him in the '70s live-action series.) But Emma Stone looks a lot like Gwen Stacy, at least the way her hair and wardrobe are done in the film.

 

[Kegg]

^As I said above, "political correctness" is a term that originated in Stalinist Russia.

I'm aware. But in the context it's being used here it's pretty synonymous with the same qualities Star Trek has been denigrated for.

 

[Christopher]

But it's used to dismiss and denigrate those qualities, not to honor them. I'm not going to tolerate having my values labeled "PC" any more than you'd tolerate having the Irish referred to by an ethnic slur.

 

[the G-man]

Face it, daredevil is a white superhero, it just would not work if he was black. Spider-man is also a white superhero 9however his ultimate universe counterpart is black). The point is the whole thing would be painfully PC. Why can't people just get over this race thing and accept the majority of superheroes are going to be white because the US' majority is white. It does not mean all superheroes need to be white in films, but if they're white in the comics, why bother to make them black in the films? On the other hand, Kingpin's white in the comics, but was black in the film, and he was playedreally well.

Okay, can you tell me what part of Daredevi's character is so intrinsically white? What is there about his persona, his identity and his abilities mean that he could only be played by or drawn as a white man?

The DD movie was based on Frank Miller's work. Miller, and in some places the movie, made much of the fact that Matt's motivation and actions stemmed in part from being an Irish Catholic.

Green Lantern wrote: Hugh Jackman is great as Wolverine, I hope he stays in the role for a long time. And I don't really care about Jackman being talker than wolverine is in the comics.

Then why do you care so much about what skin color an actor is? You have some oddly arbitrary double standards, and you don't seem to be noticing the contradictions in your own beliefs.

To be fair, race is much bigger part of someone's identity than their height.

I'm not going to tolerate having my values labeled "PC" any more than you'd tolerate having the Irish referred to by an ethnic slur.

You've made a number of good points on this thread, even if I don't agree with all of them.

However, to equate someone criticizing a political or philosophical viewpoint as an "ethnic slur" is not one of them. It makes you look thin skinned and, to be honest, like the exact caricature of a hyper-sensitive individual that typically gets labeled "PC."

Ultimately, as you have touched upon, the issue is what best serves the story. Some characters (Spiderman for example) would not be particularly impacted by having a black actor. Others (Batman and Superman IMO) would. Reasonable people can agree to disagree on whether the impact would be positive to the story or not.

With that in mind--and this is not directed at any poster in particular--if changing a character's race is done (and acknowledged to be done) for reasons other than service of the story, that would be "PC." If done for service of the story, it's not. Again, reasonable people can differ.

Really, these debates would be a lot better served if one side didn't immediately accuse the other of being racist, while in turn being accused of being "PC."

 

[Turtletrekker]

There actually is an in-continuity WWII era black Captain America. But as it's not Steve Rogers, it's a more apt comparison to John Stewart or Miles Morales.

Not really - he's never Captain America - in fact you could say that's the whole point of the story, he can never be Captain America against the racial politics of the story.

I disagree. It doesn't matter that he wasn't officially given the title by FDR or somesuch. He was a part of the Super-Soldier program (which was always intended to create an army of "Captain America's"), He wore the uniform and served his country. More importantly, he is remembered as Captain America, despite his story being officially denied by the government.

Why do think he had all of those celebrity visitors? Why was he invited to the Royal Wedding of Wakanda? Why did Steve and Isiah's wife comment on the "Family Resemblance"? Why else would Steve return the tatters of Isiah's Cap uniform to him? Why would Bucky come by to "pay his respects to someone who had worn the uniform?" Because he was Captain America!

I think that you missed the entire point of the story. It's not that he could never be Captain America because of the racial politics of the era. The point was that he became Captain America despite the racial politics of the era.

 

[Kegg]

You know, this all reminds me of the interviews George Lucas gave around the release of Red Tails earlier this year - like superhero movies, a big family blockbuster, only this one had black leads. He apparently found it difficult to find any funding beyond his own resources (which, of course, were still considerable enough to get the film made) and attributed that to the fact the cast was black.

So one might argue that say, comic book heroes should be white because they're white in the comics and all that, but Hollywood isn't as interested as pursuing summer blockbuster-style movies without white leads - regardless of subject - because they don't consider it as safe as having white leads.

However, to equate someone criticizing a political or philosophical viewpoint as an "ethnic slur" is not one of them.

Yeah... I just do not want to touch that. Moving on.

Others (Batman and Superman IMO) would.

Actually - out of curiosity - what would the problem be for Superman?

I mean, Superman is an alien from another planet. Since he is an alien, the only really compelling narrative reason I can think of for him to look exactly like a human - not to have say, green skin, purple hair or fish gills - is for him to have an alternate identity as Clark kent.

Past that he's a foundling raised by a rural family who then went to work in the big city. Could see him black for all of that, including black parents in the Kents.

Is it that Superman as a pop icon is some guy who looks vaguely like a chiselled Cary Grant? Or what?

 

[Mars]

Would you like a batman is a nice shiny silver costume? How about red white and blue with a big bat on his chest?

 

[tighr]

Hugh Jackman is great as Wolverine, I hope he stays in the role for a long time. And I don't really care about Jackman being talker than wolverine is in the comics.

Then why do you care so much about what skin color an actor is? You have some oddly arbitrary double standards, and you don't seem to be noticing the contradictions in your own beliefs.

To be fair, race is much bigger part of someone's identity than their height.

That's your opinion. I think about my height far more frequently than I think about my skin color, and I have mixed heritage. My height absolutely is part of my identity, and like skin color, there is absolutely nothing I can do about it.

Or is that your opinion because you're tall, so you've never had to think about your height? Sounds like white people who don't think race relations are a problem anymore because they never experience any bias.

 

[Greg Cox]

Too often, complaining about "PC" translates to: "I find it personally inconvenient to have to worry about being sensitive to issues of race, culture, and gender. I just want to enjoy pop culture the way I used to, before we had to respect people different than ourselves."

Which, to be fair, I have some sympathy for, at least when it comes to older books and movies. I still enjoy Bond Girls and Fu Manchu movies even though they're not all that kosher these days. But that doesn't mean we can't do better in 2012.

Sometimes, being "politically correct" is just, well, correct.

And fidelity to the original material is not the be-all and end-all of making a good superhero movie. IMHO.

 

[tighr]

Wow... breaking news. Speaking of Kingpin, Michael Clarke Duncan has just passed away.

 

[Greg Cox]

Wow... breaking news. Speaking of Kingpin, Michael Clarke Duncan has just passed away.

Sad to hear.