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Why George R.R. Martin was rejected as TNG writer

RAMA

RAMA

Admiral
Admiral
"In the mid-1980s George R.R. Martin was still a decade away from writing A Game of Thrones, the first novel in the Song of Ice and Fire series that spawned the hit HBO series, but he was already a well-regarded science fiction writer with multiple Hugo Awards."

https://trekmovie.com/2017/08/23/ge...1uYmeUIOyqhepj26buGGJmsE_LcdT9tJOmtclYzHVCG2I

George had his novel Nightflyers adapted into a B movie in the 80s and also worked on the new Twilight Zone. Later on his award-nominated novelette "Sandkings" became the premiere episode of the new Outer Limits.

RAMA
 
Not a Thrones fan, at all, but still hard not to wonder what a Martin-penned TNG ep would have been like. Tempted to look into his sci-fi work to at least get some idea.

Also hard not to think Hurley was as big a reason for the early issues as Roddenberry was. Possibly even more of one.
 
CuriousCaitian said:
Not a Thrones fan, at all, but still hard not to wonder what a Martin-penned TNG ep would have been like. Tempted to look into his sci-fi work to at least get some idea.

Also hard not to think Hurley was as big a reason for the early issues as Roddenberry was. Possibly even more of one.
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Hurley was definitely a major part of the instability and poor creative choices of the first two seasons, especially season two. Arguably the combination of the two of them was itself a problem: Roddenberry had these psychologically unrealistic utopian ideas about humanity in the future, and Hurley a) did not believe in these ideas but b) still tried to implement them as best he could. Which -- I mean, some writers were able to pull off the combo of not really believing in Roddenberrian utopianism but still make it more or less work (Ronald D. Moore, Michael Piller, Ira Steven Behr, etc.), but Hurley clearly wasn't up to the challenge of making something he didn't believe in believable.

I'll give Hurley this, though -- he wrote "Q Who?" and basically created the Borg.

Although it's also my understanding that Hurley sexually harassed Gates McFadden into leaving.

Re: George R.R. Martin. Shame Hurley chased him off. Martin probably would have been a great addition to the writing staff.
 
Tribble Threat said:
I'm not familiar with any of Martin's work aside from Game of Thrones. Has he written about societies that are not disturbing?
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I mean, I don't find Westeros or Essos to be any more disturbing than real historical societies. And his characters range from dark and sociopathic (Twyin Lannister, Joffrey Barathean, Ramsay Bolton, Littlefinger) to optimistic, endearing, and empathetic (Hodor, Meera Reed, Brienne of Tarth, Sam & Gilly), and a whole spectrum of characters in-between. I think TNG-style utopianism would have been a change of pace for him, but given the quality of his work in other shows, I think he would have adjusted to the TNG conceits and made his scripts work well.
 
Tribble Threat said:
I'm not familiar with any of Martin's work aside from Game of Thrones. Has he written about societies that are not disturbing?
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Well compare this: Was Ronald D. Moore's work on Ds9 and other Star Trek shows anywhere as dark or depressing (or ugly and boring to look at) as NuBSG? No, it wasn't.
And so Martin's work on TNG would not have been exactly like Song of Ice and Fire. And as Sci pointed out above there are characters in Song of Ice and Fire that are genuinely kind and caring people.
The bigger problem might have been that Martin might have enjoyed the "free causal sex at the drop of a hat" attitude of early TNG and might have included that into his scripts heavily (Song of Ice and Fire is infamous for it's awkward sex scenes and having women walk around semi-naked with exposed breasts and all that. The show actually toned that down quite a bit, especially after season 3 or so)

It's difficult to say what a Martin penned TNG episode would have looked like, especially since scripts tend to get re-writes, but if his work on Song of Ice and Fire is any indication then I could have seen him pitching quite a few episodes centered around the female characters. We might have gotten some interesting Troi or Dr.Crusher episodes out of him. Or "interesting" ones considering the above.
 
Orphalesion said:
Well compare this: Was Ronald D. Moore's work on Ds9 and other Star Trek shows anywhere as dark or depressing (or ugly and boring to look at) as NuBSG? No, it wasn't.
And so Martin's work on TNG would not have been exactly like Song of Ice and Fire. And as Sci pointed out above there are characters in Song of Ice and Fire that are genuinely kind and caring people.
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Exactly. People often forget that professional writers are capable of adjusting the tone and content of their stories to match the parameters of the types of television shows they're working on. Moore's work on For All Mankind, for instance, isn't nearly as dark and borderline nihilistic as his work on Battlestar Galactica; his For All Mankind is much more Realist/Naturalist and psychologically-based than his work for Star Trek; his work on Carnivale was more abstract and stylized than the others; and his work on Roswell was much more "teen soap-y." Most successful TV writers are more than capable of changing their writing style to suit the show they're on.

The bigger problem might have been that Martin might have enjoyed the "free causal sex at the drop of a hat" attitude of early TNG and might have included that into his scripts heavily (Song of Ice and Fire is infamous for it's awkward sex scenes and having women walk around semi-naked with exposed breasts and all that. The show actually toned that down quite a bit, especially after season 3 or so)
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That's a very good point. However...

It's difficult to say what a Martin penned TNG episode would have looked like, especially since scripts tend to get re-writes, but if his work on Song of Ice and Fire is any indication then I could have seen him pitching quite a few episodes centered around the female characters. We might have gotten some interesting Troi or Dr.Crusher episodes out of him.
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Many of Martin's female characters are just more three-dimensional and vividly-written than Troi or Crusher were in most of TNG. I could easily see him writing these characters in ways that would have imbued them with greater personal definition and assertiveness and agency. I would hope that his ability to write three-dimensional women would also translate to any potential depictions of 24th Century sexuality (and sexual liberality) being more about sexual agency than sexual objectification, more about sexual emancipation than sexual exploitation. But we're getting into an area that would require so much specificity to evaluate it that speculation seems pointless.
 
There's a channel on Youtube called Aegon Targaryen who has a lot of GRRM interviews in one spot and some of them are him talking about his background in sci-fi and working on TV in the 80s. It's interesting hearing him talking about the behind the scene bits and how and why things are the way they are in TV.
Ha, was just thinking about whether GRRM and JMS from Babylon 5 would have been mates and turns out they had a friendly rivalry in the 90s. But turned up an interesting reddit thread about his profile in The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Science Fiction (1995) Here is the Twitter direct link if you want it
Also echo the sentiment about RDM and For All Mankind and other stuff he worked on. There's differences in tone and themes but same focus on trying to be truthful to characters first. I feel anyway.
 
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There’s an encounter between JMS and GRRM in the former’s autobiography, Becoming Superman, that doesn’t sound at all friendly. Basically JMS pitches to a writing team that includes Martin, and the entire time Martin completely ignores him, staring out a window.
 
Martin's a bit full of himself. Needs an ego check. I tried reading the first GoT novel. It's all over the place. I'm ok with him not writing TNG.
 
Mage said:
Martin's a bit full of himself. Needs an ego check. I tried reading the first GoT novel. It's all over the place. I'm ok with him not writing TNG.
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I like the first three novels....but starting with novel 4 I agree with you. 4 and 5 are some of the most boring, meandering books I've ever read.
And he frequently makes some statements that don't especially paint him as humble.

But have you seen parts of the SoIaF fandom? They treat every sliver of his writing as pure genius and don't even seem like they want any conclusion to the story. They just want incredibly long novels they can search for imaginary "clues" for their made up "theories".
I stopped going to those forums when somebody made a multi page thread detailing how often characters walk up and down the stairs in the novels and tried to find "clues" for the "endgame" in those numbers.
 
Orphalesion said:
I like the first three novels....but starting with novel 4 I agree with you. 4 and 5 are some of the most boring, meandering books I've ever read.
And he frequently makes some statements that don't especially paint him as humble.
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For me, in the first novel already, Martin could go from plot to suddenly talking about a whole feast of food and suddenly going into a narrative on background story for the family of a character and suddenly thinking right, fuck me, a plot and novel, let's go back there.

His first novel felt as awkward as that sentence I just wrote. So yeah.......No.
 
Mage said:
For me, in the first novel already, Martin could go from plot to suddenly talking about a whole feast of food and suddenly going into a narrative on background story for the family of a character and suddenly thinking right, fuck me, a plot and novel, let's go back there.

His first novel felt as awkward as that sentence I just wrote. So yeah.......No.
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Fair enough. But the first three novels at least had plot. There were arcs. Things were happening.

Novel 4 and 5 is mostly people sitting around (or wandering around) talking about what *might* happen. And tapestries.
And when asked about book six Martin said that it will "explore the world beyond the wall"
Like.....what? We should be done with exploring at this late point in the narrative! Screw exploring! I want plot! Why can't we have plot again?
 
Orphalesion said:
Fair enough. But the first three novels at least had plot. There were arcs. Things were happening.

Novel 4 and 5 is mostly people sitting around (or wandering around) talking about what *might* happen. And tapestries.
And when asked about book six Martin said that it will "explore the world beyond the wall"
Like.....what? We should be done with exploring at this late point in the narrative! Screw exploring! I want plot! Why can't we have plot again?
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I'm basically quite happy not wasting time on GoT, both novel and series.
 
I agree with the sentiment expressed by a few here that a professional writer is fully capable of adapting his style to writing to fit something he doesn't usually write. He seemed to like TNG and understood what it took to write it, but he probably wouldn't have stuck around long.

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