Why does Harry Kim never get promoted?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by B. L., Apr 18, 2019.

  1. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Catastrophically. Combine it with that reprimand, and Harry'll be lucky to get a posting on the USS Salvager, the 2380 equivalent of a trash truck. Or a post counting the self sealing stem bolts at Logistics Outpost Five Alpha. Something grim and thankless anyway.

    They had the opportunity to leave the tin can and live on an actual planet. None did. Not even the Maquis renegades, or the assistant chief engineer who got passed over for the person who assaulted him. We're talking cult leader level appeal here.

    I'll go along with that. Crazy ironic that the decorated Starfleet captain went off the rails, and the Maquis renegade has to try to reel her back to sanity.

    That would be difficult, seven years dealing with characters this static. Compare Harry to someone like Nog, or even Bashir.
     
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  2. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    The captains job is to rubber stamp the 6 month crew evaluations, and send them to star fleet, who rubber stamps the captains crew evaluations, and sends promotions back to the Captain who makes out that she's the only person who matters, as she is handing out the pips.

    The XO and the ships therapist handle the crew evaluations. Voyager did not have a therapist or a medical professional who was not a light bulb, except Kes and Tom.

    It's most likely if Chakotay wanted a complimentary opinion to help out on this grueling and constant job, it's not going to be a 2 year old or a Lothario screwing his way through the crew.

    Um.

    Neelix?

    The Morale Officer (If they were not Neelix) would be perfect to help out in the crew evaluations.
     
  3. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I would think that if there were a second evaluation person, it would be Tuvok. He's high in the command chain, experienced, a seasoned officer, and has a very different perspective from Chakotay's. However, given that only two promotions occured on the ship, it's unlikely that any crew evals actually occured.
     
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  4. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Difficult, true. But at that point, the show was on 5 years. Moore would have made a difference, even if only a little.
     
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  5. Turd Ferguson

    Turd Ferguson Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Do you think that would have changed had they run into Amelia Earhart and co. later on in their journey? Like, after Paris got repromoted and everybody laughed at Kim for wanting a box on his seat, do you think Kim would have led the "Fuck Janeway" charge and tried to recruit people to stay on the human planet?
     
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  6. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Just the opposite, given the events of "Nightingale" and "Author, Author". Harry actively defends Janeway's deplorable decision both times, like the battered woman who insists that her abuser "really isn't like that".

    EDIT: Maybe Harry needs an "intervention". I could see several people supporting him.
    His mom: You go, Mrs. Kim. Write that letter.
    Tom: Wonder out loud why he was lucky and his more deserving friend was left out.
    Chakotay: Diffidently point out that hey, Harry's been an ensign for a long time, is there a reason?
    Seven: Say to Janeway in her cool, straightforward, Seven-ish way that "your judgment is flawed".
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2022
  7. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    By the time Paris got his rank back, they had cut about 50 years off their journey home, so I doubt anyone would have left at that point because it's hard to argue with results.

    If there was any time some crew might leave, it would be before they got their first jump by Kes. By that time, they had gone through both the Kazon and the Vidiians multiple times, a Borg cube, the Voth, the Nyrians, macroviruses, and a bunch of other dangers. All while barely crawling their way back home.

    I still find it completely unbelievable that no one left at the end of "THE 37's".
     
  8. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

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    As do I. Especially among the Maquis, who did not sign up for wearing Starfleet pajamas, following the Prime Directive, eating Neelix's cooking, and getting periodically gutted by Vidiians.

    As I've often said, this would have been the perfect exit for Lt. Carey... develop him a bit during the first season, and then he and a half dozen or so Maquis jump ship. And if they want to bring him back in Season 7, just do it in "Shattered".
     
  9. RandyS

    RandyS Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I don't. These people wanted to get home and were clearly willing to accept whatever risk that entailed.

    Why is that so bad?
     
  10. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'm not saying it was bad. I am just saying it's unbelievable, particularly considering Maquis feelings about the Federation.

    Think of it this way: a lot of the Maquis had homes in the DMZ. Now, they are 75 years away from it... quite likely will never see it again. Those colonists and Maquis that lived in the DMZ clearly had no problem making new homes for themselves in the DMZ worlds, which is why I understand them fighting so hard for them. Now being on the other side of the galaxy, with almost certainty they will never see those homes again, or at the very least be so radically different from what they knew because decades had gone by, but now they land on a world full of humans that are welcoming to anyone who wants to stay.

    Maybe none of the Starfleet people would leave, but at least a few of the Maquis would leave, given their feelings of the Federation, the possibility of taking 75 years (or even longer, if things went south for them), and that they were already likely of the colonist mindset.

    I get why the episode did it, and narratively I see what they were going for. It just felt a little too... saccharine.

    (One big mistake, which is totally on UPN and not Berman and company, was putting "THE 37's" as the season 2 premiere instead of keeping it as the season 1 finale as it was produced. That whole strategy of being a month early with new episodes for the season hurt more than it helped, and it ultimately cheated VOYAGER out of 4 more episodes that could have been produced for season 3... though in hindsight, given how season 3 was so mediocre in the middle part, shortening it to give the writers more time to revamp things between season 3 and 4 was probably a good move.)
     
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  11. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It occurs to me that it's an interesting juxtaposition that in "Learning Curve" we see four Maquis who are apparently among the farthest away from being Starfleet material, and then one episode later we're presented with an opportunity for people to jump ship.

    It seems an opportunity was missed here to add a bit of realism and have Tuvok's lessons perhaps be less successful with one or more of the four, and have them opt to leave when they have the chance.

    That said, Tuvok is a Vulcan and we doubtless didn't see all of the time he spent with his trainees, so perhaps they were "indoctrinated" off-screen.

    If the timeline had progressed a bit differently, this might also have been an opportunity for Suder to opt out or be kicked off the ship; perhaps the humans on the planet could offer him more humane rehabilitation than "confined to quarters for the rest of your life".
     
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  12. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    Suder was a Betazoid without telepathy.

    Growing up, every one would have treated him like a moron and a cripple.

    Although the same thing happened to Deanna and she turned out fine, or was Dee just not bright enough to notice how the mean girls were picking on her?
     
  13. jackoverfull

    jackoverfull Commodore Commodore

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    it just stretch believability. Especially the maquis people have little reason to stay or to trust janeway to bring them back.
     
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  14. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Because out of 150 of them, no one chose to stay behind. I could see most agreeing to remain on Voyager, but not all.

    Good word for it.

    I see the same thing. Like "Inquisition" and "In the Pale Moonlight", these were poorly positioned episodes.

    And don't forget that she and her "Starfleet principles" are the reason they were marooned in the Delta Quadrant to begin with. And now they're stuck in that same organization... is it realistic to believe that some wouldn't be resentful?
     
  15. MarkusTay

    MarkusTay Commander Red Shirt

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    Doing a complete binge-rewatch, and I've decided its because he is not the real Harry Kim. The real one died, and they replaced him with one from another timeline. He's lucky they left him an ensign.

    I also find it extremely disturbing (in the same episode) how easily Samantha Wildman excepted a replacement baby after hers died.
     
  16. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    They occupied the same point in time and space. They were literal duplicates. Only antimatter was unable to be duplicated. The only difference is the one the Vidiians eventually invaded started the antiproton bursts quicker. This is why the Voyager with Kim and Naomi dead was getting damaged so badly.

    So they aren't really different people.

    About Samantha, what disturbs me is she is completely absent in the later seasons.
     
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  17. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    So all 150 people with no dissent? It strains believability as others have stated. Especially with the Maquis who are not there of their own free will. They have no obligation to Starfleet, to the crew or to Janeway. Yet they all fall lock step in line with her decisions? :vulcan:

    I mean, it was within a short time span and technically a duplicate so probably not that different at all.
     
  18. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    If anything, because she lost her baby, Samantha will be even more overprotective and accepting of Naomi.
     
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  19. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The "duplicate replacement" theory has popped up before. I even used it myself, when I wrote "Where's my Box"? However, while good for parody fanfiction, it doesn't really hold water.
    - The scisson phenomenon that duplicated them happened hours before, if that. They were effectively the same person until it happened, so everything Harry A had done, Harry B had as well.
    - Because the other Voyager went pfoom, killing everyone onboard except Harry and Naomi, everyone on Voyager was equally alive and equally dead.
    - If Harry could not be promoted by Janeway (because he wasn't the real Harry), she could not give him orders, and she could not reprimand him in S5. Because she did these things, the assertion that he could not be field promoted is nullified.
     
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  20. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Also add this... between "DEADLOCK" and "UNIMATRIX ZERO" when Kim asks for his box, 5 and a half years went by.

    No ensign stays that rank for THAT long.