Spoilers Why do the same recurring characters implausibly keep popping up?

[eschaton]

When telling a war story, this isn't unusual.

Even though DS9 remains my favorite Trek, it did indeed suffer from "small universe syndrome" near the end of its run. Sisko becomes a literal god. Rom is Grand Negus. Martok is Chancelor of the Klingon Empire. Odo saves his people, etc. Not to mention things like Weyoun being cloned many times to excuse him popping up over and over again. But even so, it generally did better than Discovery has to date - perhaps because it was the most truly "ensemble" of all of the Treks, and it had the largest set of recurring guest characters in the franchise.

Enterprise's attempt to do "epic" didn't work as well, but at least the story was somewhat plausibly constrained by having the NX-01 isolated in a different region of space from the Federation - along with the ship not engaging much in heavy combat directly.

While I think Discovery to date has done serialization better than Enterprise did in Season 3, I think ENT season 3 still felt broader and more expansive than what DIS is trying to do.

 

[Tomalak]

While I think Discovery to date has done serialization better than Enterprise did in Season 3, I think ENT season 3 still felt broader and more expansive than what DIS is trying to do.

I think you've got some valid points, but there's always going to be a balance, and ensuring dramatic needs are met.

The mirror universe distorts it somewhat, because of course we're going to see the same people, otherwise where's the fun? Of course the Emperor was going to be Georgiou, because if it were someone we hadn't met, there wouldn't be much drama in the reveal.

Now I know there's a good debate to be had over the merits of subsuming the drama to fit shocking (or not so shocking) reveals, but the writers have decided to focus on Burnham rather than have a space opera about the war.

That's had the effect that everything seems to revolve around her - leading to the mistaken 'Mary Sue' accusations. She caused the war, she was handpicked to join Discovery, her mirror counterpart was her mirror former captain's adoptive daughter and had an affair with her current captain, whilst our Burnham herself was adopted by Spock's dad. Meanwhile her boyfriend is the protege of the Klingon leader she murdered to start the war in the first place. And half the crew seem to be former subordinates she betrayed on her old ship.

But I don't think the comparison with DS9 or ENT is entirely apt - they were more interested in the space opera outcomes of their respective wars. DIS doesn't really care about the Klingon war, it's just a backdrop for the stories about Burnham, Lorca and the crew under pressure and straining against Starfleet ideals. Whether that works for you or not is a different question.

 

[picardjean-luc]

It's like TNG. It was always more interesting when Nechayev showed up instead of random Admiral Person #123.

Yup. Plus in DS9 we had so many recurring characters like Bareil and Kai Winn (the Bajorans), Dukat and Garak (the Cardassians), Admiral Ross and Sloan (Starfleet), Nog and the rest of his Ferengi families, Morn, and so forth. Yes, having them all around make the show very complicated, with multiple plots, but at the same time they're all interesting and fun characters that make DS9 works, which wouldn't have been the case had they cast Evil Cardassian Guls or Dominion Vorta #105 or cranky Starfleet Admiral #175 in different episodes.

 

[eschaton]

But I don't think the comparison with DS9 or ENT is entirely apt - they were more interested in the space opera outcomes of their respective wars. DIS doesn't really care about the Klingon war, it's just a backdrop for the stories about Burnham, Lorca and the crew under pressure and straining against Starfleet ideals. Whether that works for you or not is a different question.

You're right of course. But it goes back to what I said before - Burnham didn't need this "epic" backdrop to tell this story about her character.

Here's my outline of Discovery: Lowered Stakes:

Micheal Burnham is a human being who was raised by Vulcans after the death of her biological parents in a Klingon attack (not Sarek). She is stationed with Captain Georgiou, the accomplished but not-well-known captian of the USS Shenzhou. During a skirmish with the Klingon Empire, Burnham foolishly challenges her captain's judgement. While she is thrown into the brig for insubordination, her captain heeds her advice, and dies as a result of the advice given. Burnham is court-martialed for mutiny and expelled from Starfleet (although not imprisoned).

Border skirmishes with the Klingon Empire turn into all-out war, and Starfleet becomes desperate for warm bodies. Although her judgement was bad, Burnham gets a second chance to redeem herself when an officer who formerly served with her (Saru) suggests using her in an advisory role to his new captain, Gabriel Lorca, on the science ship U.S.S. Discovery. This Discovery does not have a spore drive, BTW. Also on the crew are Paul Stamets (a research scientist who is resentful of being drafted) and Sylvia Tilly (a cadet from Starfleet Academy). Soon to join them is Ash Tyler, a former Starfleet POW.

There. You have the same basic characters on the same ship, with the "epic" elements taken out. Now you put the characters into situations where they can have interesting frictions and interaction with one another. You could even have Lorca be from the Mirror Universe, or Ash still be a Klingon spy, but there is no need for a personal connection with Burnham, and (IMHO) no need for both to be true. The core of the story is Burnham's redemption arc from being an XO who fucked up and let her captain die. Everything else is window dressing.

 

[eltel99uk]

I don't think you are necessarily right generally but in this instance I'm with you 100% Why? Because of the Lorca FUBAR. They needed to have developed a wider, "deeper" ensemble to lessen the blow of Lorca's exit. It's another example of the writers not thinking things through. The cast we know and care about is too small, pure and simple. Plus nobody in that cast is obvious star quality.

 

[Wulf]

They needed to have developed a wider, "deeper" ensemble to lessen the blow of Lorca's exit

I'm not sure what you mean, there are tons of useful characters to cover for Lorca.

Aside from Michael and Saru, there's....

That girl. With the thing over her eye. You know, head-shavey girl. She sits on the bridge somewhere.

Oh, and that other girl that uses too much makeup. The gray one. I think she's an android or something. I dunno what her job is, but she's... around.

The important thing is that the writers have brought them all along on this rich journey and through it all they've grown to become a family.

...Seriously, I know they've been given names, but has anybody used them? They should probably get some nametags.

Or at least cool nicknames, like Shavy 'n Shiny.

 

[Xhiandra]

Of course the Emperor was going to be Georgiou, because if it were someone we hadn't met, there wouldn't be much drama in the reveal.

Problem is, that's more McGyver drama than Hamlet drama. It's corny. Then again, the whole mirror universe thing has always been corny and ridiculous, in all of Trek (especially DS9).

Micheal Burnham is a human being who was raised by Vulcans after the death of her biological parents in a Klingon attack (not Sarek). She is stationed with Captain Georgiou, the accomplished but not-well-known captian of the USS Shenzhou. During a skirmish with the Klingon Empire, Burnham foolishly challenges her captain's judgement. While she is thrown into the brig for insubordination, her captain heeds her advice, and dies as a result of the advice given. Burnham is court-martialed for mutiny and expelled from Starfleet (although not imprisoned).

Border skirmishes with the Klingon Empire turn into all-out war, and Starfleet becomes desperate for warm bodies. Although her judgement was bad, Burnham gets a second chance to redeem herself when an officer who formerly served with her (Saru) suggests using her in an advisory role to his new captain, Gabriel Lorca, on the science ship U.S.S. Discovery. This Discovery does not have a spore drive, BTW. Also on the crew are Paul Stamets (a research scientist who is resentful of being drafted) and Sylvia Tilly (a cadet from Starfleet Academy). Soon to join them is Ash Tyler, a former Starfleet POW.

That does sound like an improvement. Drop people constantly praising Michael's abilities, drop the space kung-fu, add a "trolley problem" situation (for instance) and drop the whole "Ash Tyler is sikrit klingon leader" to actually explore PTSD instead and you've got the makings of a much better show.

Oh, and show more of Dr Culber before killing him, because his death was not at all impactful.
He was a glorified extra by that point, albeit one of which I remembered the name, unlike Shavy and Shiny.

 

[eschaton]

I'm not sure what you mean, there are tons of useful characters to cover for Lorca.

Aside from Michael and Saru, there's....

That girl. With the thing over her eye. You know, head-shavey girl. She sits on the bridge somewhere.

Oh, and that other girl that uses too much makeup. The gray one. I think she's an android or something. I dunno what her job is, but she's... around.

The important thing is that the writers have brought them all along on this rich journey and through it all they've grown to become a family.

...Seriously, I know they've been given names, but has anybody used them? They should probably get some nametags.

Or at least cool nicknames, like Shavy 'n Shiny.

I still find it funny that Mirror Detmer got more lines in the show to date than Prime Detmer has been given.

Edit: The big problem with upgrading these "glorified extras" to main cast members is we have no idea if they can actually act.

 

[Greg Cox]

And my first statement also is valid, there is no point in writing negative stuff here when all you are going to get are: "That's not true, Discovery is the greatest..." "TNG was shit", "DS9 was shit"....

Honestly, I don't see anyone posting that "TNG was shit," etc. What you do see is people occasionally pointing out that the older shows routinely did the same things that DISCO is getting lambasted for. In other words, people aren't attacking the old shows; they're simply objecting to double standards and selective amnesia. Here's the conversation I keep seeing:

"DISCO sucks because it did the THING! Which proves that it's an epic fail and not REAL Star Trek!"

"But, um, the old shows and movies also did the THING, all the time."

"That was DIFFERENT!"

 

[seigezunt]

I like that it has a smaller cast. I was not a fan of the A/B plot structure of the later shows, which often had filler plot that seemed to be there just to give the characters something to do.

 

[cultcross]

I like that it has a smaller cast. I was not a fan of the A/B plot structure of the later shows, which often had filler plot that seemed to be there just to give the characters something to do.

Yeah smaller cast is a definite plus. It avoids Star Trek's long running issue with superfluous characters and characters the writers don't know how to use. It leads to awkward insertions of characters into stories, or choosing weird characters to front stories that don't suit them (why is Crusher, rather than LaForge fronting an engineering symposium about shields? Because she hasn't had enough screentime this season.)

I would enjoy a wider range of recurring characters, but I'm not that bothered by it.

 

[Tomalak]

I like that it has a smaller cast. I was not a fan of the A/B plot structure of the later shows, which often had filler plot that seemed to be there just to give the characters something to do.

And to fill airtime. Writing 26 episodes a year must have been a nightmare.

"Er, I dunno, Data's cat gets pregnant?"

 

[Nyotarules]

Newsflash: fans of Star Trek still have plenty of criticism of Star Trek.

I genuinely don't know what you want. Plenty of people post criticism here - many disagree with it, some agree. That's probably what you'd expect on a Star Trek forum full of people who like Star Trek.

Do you want a safe space for negative-only threads where no one presents a dissenting opinion?

The poster wants a Mirror universe thread, no dissent tolerated!

 

[Nyotarules]

Kinda funny that TOS went to great lengths to avoid the small universe syndrome despite having no budget, and now Trek has the budget but the universe feels smaller than ever.

Well they failed in that regard, Starfleet was to represent a multi species Federation and we got lots and lots of........humans.
And DISCO is making the same error with even more money.

 

[SJGardner]

IMO the Klingon War arc didn't need a larger cast... we followed the Discovery as it was operating behind lines, mainly through the eyes of Michael Burnham. We're practically at the untamed frontier of Federation space where colonization has only just begun (remember, the Klingon plot to poison the quadrotriticale supplies in the '60s will also be undertaken with the aim of thwarting or at the very least stalling Federation colonization efforts here). It's not unreasonable to say there aren't many starbases in this area as there wasn't any Klingon activity in the recent past that would've warranted a larger military presence, and it's also believable to me that Starfleet operations in the region are mainly handled by two flag officers. I think the issue is not that the universe as a whole is empty but rather that the show glosses over everybody who's not necessary for the plot. I certainly understand why someone would see this as a flaw of the show in storytelling and worldbuilding, even if I don't have problems with it myself.

That being said, it certainly would've been better to flesh the bridge crew out as well (Detmer's nonexistent reunion with Burnham comes to mind), but I have to admit that the plot was tight enough that I have no particular problems with the show focusing on a smaller group of main characters. That doesn't mean I'm not hoping that Season 2 would expand the recurring cast though; even a 'stranded in a foreign place' type of arc presents the opportunity to explore relationships between other crewmembers. Still, as I'm not ready to write off the show's approach to populating its universe based on one season, I'll keep being cautiously optimistic about season two.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Kinda funny that TOS went to great lengths to avoid the small universe syndrome despite having no budget, and now Trek has the budget but the universe feels smaller than ever.

Did it? They ran into Mudd twice. And for some reason half the planets they visit are home to ex-girlfriends of Kirk, Spock and McCoy. And guess what? Spock's dad is the Vulcan ambassador! What are the chances?

 

[fireproof78]

How so? Saving Private Ryan has a small core cast and runs less than three hours but feels far more vast than Discovery after a dozen episodes.

War stories can typically feel very vast and unapproachable. So, story telling often revolves around that core group and their actions, rather than larger all these battles are happening.

I doubt I'm explaining it well, but I often find that personal stories are told, with the war impacting the characters, rather than the characters having to impact every facet of the war.

That said, I think DISCO is struggling to balance the two, so I don't think they are doing it perfectly right.

Honestly, I don't see anyone posting that "TNG was shit," etc. What you do see is people occasionally pointing out that the older shows routinely did the same things that DISCO is getting lambasted for. In other words, people aren't attacking the old shows; they're simply objecting to double standards and selective amnesia. Here's the conversation I keep seeing:

"DISCO sucks because it did the THING! Which proves that it's an epic fail and not REAL Star Trek!"

"But, um, the old shows and movies also did the THING, all the time."

"That was DIFFERENT!"

Listen to your elders, people.

 

[Tomalak]

Did it? They ran into Mudd twice. And for some reason half the planets they visit are home to ex-girlfriends of Kirk, Spock and McCoy. And guess what? Spock's dad is the Vulcan ambassador! What are the chances?

And he looked the same as the Romulan commander, which was a bit suspicious.

Kirk would have met Kor again, had John Colicos been available for Day of the Dove.

 

[Greg Cox]

Listen to your elders, people.

Oh, god, I'm an "elder" now?

Reminds me of the first time I walked in on a squad of Tor interns gabbing, intending to join in the chitchat, only to have them all suddenly start looking very busy. Came as a bit of a jolt:

"Oh, shit, I'm an authority figure now . . . "

 

[fireproof78]

Oh, god, I'm an "elder" now?

Reminds me of the first time I walked in on a squad of Tor interns gabbing, intending to join in the chitchat, only to have them all suddenly start looking very busy. Came as a bit of a jolt:

"Oh, shit, I'm an authority figure now . . . "

Yeah, I've had that, and I'm only 33...it's scary.