Why do the Klingons have equal technology to the Federation

[T'Girl]

When the refuges were beamed from Kang's ship, in Day of the Dove, two separated themselves out to stand next to Kang. One was introduced as Kang's science officer. He was seen standing close to Kang in later scenes, so Kang had a science officer as part of his "inner circle."

 

[Anwar]

I thought his wife Mara was the science officer?

Anywho, I figured the Klingons got their original tech from the Hurq and it took them a while to understand it.

 

[EmperorTiberius]

Whether their warriror class respects other classes is not part of the equation. Others have to do what they can to make a living.

I think it does matter. If Klingons believe being warriors is the only worthwhile endeavor, then how many Klingons will follow that path despite it not being where their talents lie? How many Klingons died in battle with supposedly inferior forces because those warrirors were really better suited to careers in science, engineering, law, or finance?

You are born into a class. Can't move in or out of it. They appear to be much like Samurai, even down to prefering traditional weapons instead of firearms.

 

[Christopher]

I thought his wife Mara was the science officer?

Yes, Kang introduced Mara as his science officer. Mara was the only one who stayed in the transporter room with Kang when he delivered the introduction.

You are born into a class. Can't move in our out of it.

You're thinking of a caste. There are many cultures in which a social class can be moved into or out of -- the United States, for example (although many in the American upper class are trying to make it harder for others to move into it).

 

[Hando]

There must be more going on.
After all it seems like the Klingons are in the same research speed category as the Vulcans.
In the 14th century both the recovery of Vulcan and the Hur'q invasion of Qo'nos occurred. Jump to the 22nd century and their technological levels are not that far apart.
(Please note that the Hur'q invasion wasn't that positive as it left Qo'nos resource poor, so they may have built the Ch'gran fleet but afterwards they would have to find alternative means to do the same thing as the Hur'q technology did.)


It is only when humans enter the equation and show how slow everybody else is that problems arise.

I wonder did in the 23rd century in the Klingon Empire occur a similar transformation as in the Tokugawa shogunate? We have Colonel Worf, the head of a noble house, and General Chang, probably the second most powerful person in the Empire, "playing" lawyers.

Up to the 21st century (while there was an Emperor) I am not sure about the general scientific community in the Empire. But I would say that as the power of the houses rose the scientist worked rather for the houses than for the Empire as a whole. Something like Magisters in Europe during the Middle Ages.

As to why the Klingons can keep up with the UFP, there may be several reasons:
1.) espionage
2.) Klingon-Romulan Alliance and its effects - House of Duras and also other houses grew more powerful from their association with Romulans, they may have exchanged technology too
3.) the already stated conquering of worlds with the more advanced technology, or through xenoarcheology, or buying it
4.) no squandering: a Klingon ship needs only weapons, shields and basic sensors, warp drive ...; no need for gardens, holodecks, living quarters have only beds... on the other hand look at a Federation ship ...; if Starfleet used a more Klingon mindset and built a Sovereign-or-Galaxy-class-sized ship according to Defiant specifications we would see just how much the UFP is more advanced than the Klingon Empire (I am unsure if Yesterday's Enterprise supports or disproves this)

 

[AggieJohn]

They don't have to reverse engineer it, though. Conquered civilizations aren't always destroyed. "You will now teach us about this technology. You will build this technology for us." etc...

Indeed, that's the whole point of empires as sociopolitical entities. An empire is what you get when one powerful state takes over multiple other societies and funnels their resources, wealth, personnel, etc. to the service of its own prosperity and efforts.

Well we assume that Klingons have always been "all" about the warrior code.

How are we assuming that? As I just said, we know for a canonical fact, thanks to ENT: "Judgment," that the dominance of the warrior caste began only in the early 22nd or late 21st century. In other words, if Qo'noS existed and we went there today, in 2012, we'd most likely find what Kolos described as "a great society... [where] honor was earned through integrity and acts of true courage, not senseless bloodshed." Probably still an aggressive society by our standards, but not so dominated by its military class and their values as it would be a century or two later.

They seemed much more pragmatic in the 23 century. Upon entering into a space building empire mode they may have strongly embraced a scientist class and even warriors were well educated preferring technology instead of focusing on hand to hand combat but with peace with the Federation you see a cultural shift to "get back" to their roots.

This may have even been in waves, there is a concept even in the US of the cultural pendulum wherein we embrace liberal and conservative views.

That could certainly be the case. Although the 2150s society Kolos condemns in "Judgment," where victory by any means is valued over integrity, does seem pretty similar to the treacherous Klingon mentality we glimpsed in the TOS era.

Hence the "all" statement. It seems reasonable to assume that there is a strong "honor" aspect to the Klingon but like knights or Samurai there are periods where the code was less important than actually winning wherein they fled battle or did underhanded things to achieve victory. So the strong almost religious adherence to honor may come and go. There was a theme of the Klingon's losing their warrior way in the TNG. They even cloned Kahless to address this. That might not have been an isolated event wherein they often struggle with technology and the old ways. Again not that different from modern culture in the west or Japan.

Now on another note. Are we assuming that warriors can be great engineers? The vikings did amazing things with their ships and were great explorers. There was at times that strong sense of pride in the ship and knowing every inch of it amount various Klingons in the TNG and DS9.

 

[Christopher]

The issue isn't about our assumptions, but the Klingons' assumptions. As stated in the first post, "Suspicions" seemed to indicate that the Klingons themselves hold scientists in low esteem; and as I pointed out, "Judgment" pretty much said outright that pretty much all non-warrior classes in the empire have come to be marginalized and given less respect than the warriors. So it's not about whether we think warriors can be inventive; it's about whether the Klingons as a culture respect engineers and scientists. And there seems to be evidence that they don't, at least not during the points in their history that we've seen depicted onscreen.

 

[T'Girl]

I thought his wife Mara was the science officer?

Seem to have gotten that jumbled around. However the fact remains that Kang did have a science officer.

 

[Pavonis]

Yes, which means the Klingon scientists we've seen were both women. Mara, and Kurak in TNG's "Suspicions".

Maybe women dominate the non-combat related fields? The Cardassian society is set up that way.

 

[AggieJohn]

The issue isn't about our assumptions, but the Klingons' assumptions. As stated in the first post, "Suspicions" seemed to indicate that the Klingons themselves hold scientists in low esteem; and as I pointed out, "Judgment" pretty much said outright that pretty much all non-warrior classes in the empire have come to be marginalized and given less respect than the warriors. So it's not about whether we think warriors can be inventive; it's about whether the Klingons as a culture respect engineers and scientists. And there seems to be evidence that they don't, at least not during the points in their history that we've seen depicted onscreen.

That I do completely agree with. The onscreen appearance does not seem to suggest any respect for science. Though oddly enough Klingon Opera seems to be well respected even out side the empire?

 

[Hando]

The issue isn't about our assumptions, but the Klingons' assumptions. As stated in the first post, "Suspicions" seemed to indicate that the Klingons themselves hold scientists in low esteem; and as I pointed out, "Judgment" pretty much said outright that pretty much all non-warrior classes in the empire have come to be marginalized and given less respect than the warriors. So it's not about whether we think warriors can be inventive; it's about whether the Klingons as a culture respect engineers and scientists. And there seems to be evidence that they don't, at least not during the points in their history that we've seen depicted onscreen.

While it is true, doesn't it just show that the warriors dislike "all" non-warriors/for "civilians".

Isn't it likely that if Kurak were to do a stint in the military and then pursue science, she would had better experience.

I think it just shows a warrior-first attitude. Something along the lines that a soldier in the USA would approve more of a DARPA scientist than of a researcher at a university.

What do you think?

 

[Christopher]

While it is true, doesn't it just show that the warriors dislike "all" non-warriors/for "civilians".

But the key is, in a society where the warrior class rules and its values are the ones that shape the nation's policies, that dislike is not "just" dislike, but a determining factor in how science and technology are treated in society as a whole. Heck, just look at the current US Congress and you'll see that if the people in power have a negative attitude toward science and innovation, it can have a seriously harmful impact on scientific progress in a nation, due to a lack of funding and support for scientific institutions and education and the promotion of laws and policies based on scientifically illegitimate beliefs.

 

[Hando]

But the key is, in a society where the warrior class rules and its values are the ones that shape the nation's policies, that dislike is not "just" dislike, but a determining factor in how science and technology are treated in society as a whole. Heck, just look at the current US Congress and you'll see that if the people in power have a negative attitude toward science and innovation, it can have a seriously harmful impact on scientific progress in a nation, due to a lack of funding and support for scientific institutions and education and the promotion of laws and policies based on scientifically illegitimate beliefs.

I just wanted to point out that the warriors don't have to be against innovation. Just against innovation coming from the "outside". That they would rather have the innovation/research come from the warrior class.

And it doesn't have to be as much as disdain, or dislike, just that they saw themselves as more important than everybody else.

I would like to use a real-life, so I will go with the cliche of Klingons being a cross between Japanese and Norse.
And in Japan it did work that way, after-all the samurai did depend on the craftsmen and sword-smiths and still consider themselves to be on a higher social level.

I may be going in circles here, but .

Hm, I wonder how the rise of the warrior class in the 22nd century was connected with the last emperor and the rise of the houses in 21st century.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

I would like to use a real-life, so I will go with the cliche of Klingons being a cross between Japanese and Norse.
And in Japan it did work that way, after-all the samurai did depend on the craftsmen and sword-smiths and still consider themselves to be on a higher social level.

Both the japanese and the vikings WERE scientifically/technologically and economically stagnant. And, for the vast majority of the population, life in these societies was brutish and short.
That's what you get when your craftsmen, sword-smiths, etc - pretty much 99% of your citizens - are second-class citizens, living in poverty.
Tell me - do you know what was the punishment for a samurai killing a peasant/craftsman/sword-smith, just because he felt like it/got a kick out of it?

That's what you get, generally, when you have an oligarchy whose main jobs are to squeeze the rest of society for all the wealth and to secure its future prominence (waging wars, largely for 'macho' reasons, in the process). For proof, look at most human societies that existed.

That's an accurate description of the klingon society - as shown on screen. That the klingon empire kept up with the federation, for centuries, in terms of wealth and technology, is a poetic license - you just have to suspend disbelief and accept it; in actuality, it's just as realistic as the transporter.

I may be going in circles here, but .

Christopher's analysis is correct. You're trying to refute it with arguments he already proved unconvincing. Of course, that doesn't stop you from repeating them.

So - yes, you are going in circles.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The issue isn't about our assumptions, but the Klingons' assumptions. As stated in the first post, "Suspicions" seemed to indicate that the Klingons themselves hold scientists in low esteem; and as I pointed out, "Judgment" pretty much said outright that pretty much all non-warrior classes in the empire have come to be marginalized and given less respect than the warriors. So it's not about whether we think warriors can be inventive; it's about whether the Klingons as a culture respect engineers and scientists. And there seems to be evidence that they don't, at least not during the points in their history that we've seen depicted onscreen.

Maybe Kurak just had a bad attitude and saw prejudice where none existed?

 

[Hando]

I would like to use a real-life, so I will go with the cliche of Klingons being a cross between Japanese and Norse.
And in Japan it did work that way, after-all the samurai did depend on the craftsmen and sword-smiths and still consider themselves to be on a higher social level.

Both the japanese and the vikings WERE scientifically/technologically and economically stagnant. And, for the vast majority of the population, life in these societies was brutish and short.
That's what you get when your craftsmen, sword-smiths, etc - pretty much 99% of your citizens - are second-class citizens, living in poverty.
Tell me - do you know what was the punishment for a samurai killing a peasant/craftsman/sword-smith, just because he felt like it/got a kick out of it?

That's what you get, generally, when you have an oligarchy whose main jobs are to squeeze the rest of society for all the wealth and to secure its future prominence (waging wars, largely for 'macho' reasons, in the process). For proof, look at most human societies that existed.

That's an accurate description of the klingon society - as shown on screen. That the klingon empire kept up with the federation, for centuries, in terms of wealth and technology, is a poetic license - you just have to suspend disbelief and accept it; in actuality, it's just as realistic as the transporter.

I may be going in circles here, but .

Christopher's analysis is correct. You're trying to refute it with arguments he already proved unconvincing. Of course, that doesn't stop you from repeating them.

So - yes, you are going in circles.

Please, if all could be answered with a wizard did it, poetic licence, it's only fiction than there would be no need for any discussion.

I agree with Christopher, but answers have to be found.
And so far the only disagreement was wit my failed attempts to provide flawed examples from HUMAN history. I see picking on my examples rather than the actual idea.

So, I will attempt to make the final example and then I will shut up.
What about this: Klingons = USSR
The country is ruled by communists (warriors). All progress is ascribed to communists (warriors) ...

As was said the non-warrior classes were marginalized, that does not mean that their function in the society was marginalized too. Just that most of them were/will be taken over by the warriors.

Would this explain Mara, Chang, Col. Worf, possibly even Kurak post-Dominon War?

PS: I don't know about the Norse, but the Japanese were stagnant only because it was forced upon them from the up. If the isolation was not implemented they would have been more progressive, and they still were pretty innovative in some areas.

 

[AggieJohn]

I am just not completely convinced that the Klingons are purely a Norse/Japanese Samurai culture. It does appear that way in Enterprise and the TNG but not the case in the TOS. This leaves me with the view that there are cycles in the Empire in which a more USSR reasonable and pragmatic approach/attitude towards science and engineering was taken.

We may have even seen the ill effects of a conservative warrior culture taking its tool on the empire where in they seems dominated by petty rivalries and the consumption of blood wine.

One got the impression the Klingons like Worf might represent a counter cultural movement back towards an appreciation of science and reason while maintaining an respect for the cultural past.

 

[Christopher]

I am just not completely convinced that the Klingons are purely a Norse/Japanese Samurai culture. It does appear that way in Enterprise and the TNG but not the case in the TOS.

Oh, definitely. It wasn't until TNG that the writers began using Norse and samurai models for writing the Klingons. The TOS Klingons were a cross between space Mongols in appearance and behavior and space Soviets from a political standpoint -- or rather, the '60s American TV stereotypes of Mongols and Soviets.

 

[Xerxes1979]

The Klingon Empire is clearly multi-racial as evidenced the numerous alien races present on Rura Penthe. For these subject races I imagine non-combat related professions are quite viable.

There may exist a galatic arms market which the Klingons also utilitize. How else did those moronic mercenaries in Gambit get such a good ship?

Also the Soviet/Klingon paralells are appropriate. In the early 1980's the U.S.S.R. spent something like 15% of GDP on their military.

The Federation is more advanced but spends almost nothing on defense so I don't have a problem with the closeness of the two powers as depicted.

 

[Shawnster]

How about this:

Some pure blood Klingons are allowed to pursue non-military careers if they so choose or if they are too weak/cowardly to cut it as a warrior. They aren't sick and weak enough to be put to death, but they are pathetic Klingons that can only find work as nannies, cooks, etc...

Some Klingons choose to also diversify into other fields IN ADDITION to military service, such as Kang's wife.

Meanwhile, the majority of the menial non-military professions are left to the conquered species. These pathetic losers are not even allowed to leave their home planet or even board a ship with Warp drive. They are allowed to continue to exist solely to provide the Empire with much needed non-military infrastructure.