Why do so many people hate 'Insurrection' so much?

[DonIago]

Question, is Son'a space within Federation space our outside of it? if it's the later the Federation could revoke the Son'a right to travel through Federation space and tell them to leave our territory or we'll destroy your ships.

I don't think Ru'afo and at least some other Son'a gave a damn whether they ultimately had the right to travel inside Federation space. They negotiated because it was, at the time, the path of least resistance. Just as killing Dougherty and forcing the situation ultimately became the path of least resistance.

Whether we assume the Son'a wanted to harvest the rings, or wanted to wipe out the Baku, there's nothing to stop them from sneaking into Federation space, at least that we're presented with. And given how generally inhospitable the Briar Patch was, it doesn't seem likely that the Federation was doing any sort of regular checking-up on the area. Hell, if they were, they surely would have noted the Baku planet's unique properties before it was pointed out to them...unless we want to assume the Federation approached the Son'a rather than they other way around, but I don't think that's likely.

In any event, if the Baku-Son'a dispute is an internal matter, why does the Federation get to tell the Son'a they can't return to the planet they originated from? It's safe to assume the Son'a would be as honest about their motives for wanting to return as they were about being descended from the Baku in the scenario we were presented with.

Hell, they might have even been successful if they'd left it at "We're descended from the people at Planet X, and we want to return home. It's an internal matter and you have no right to stop us."

 

[Emperor Norton]

I don't think "hate" is a good word. But it is dull. So unbearably dull. Coming off of "First Contact", it is starkly dull in comparison. And "Nemesis" was not exactly redeeming in the film series to make up for it. So Insurrection is this early sign of a decline. Heck, "Search For Spock" is not exactly "Wrath of Khan" or "Voyage Home", but it is a decent film in its own right. Insurrection is not a matter of a gem being overlooked. It is an in between film that would not stand out and does not stand out on its own merits.

 

[at Quark's]

One of the problems in this movie is that's not clear. On the surface its just Picard's interest in a hot babe thats changed his mind. I know he says its the principle of the thing but where were his principles when he was forcibly moving the American Indians ?

I'm willing to buy that Picard reflected on that earlier episode later on, re-evaluated, and came to the conclusion that perhaps it would have been wrong to follow orders in that situation. He clearly didn't cherish those orders back then, already, even if he was prepared to execute them. People can have a change of heart after certain life experiences, after all. Given how introspective Picard (the TV version) is, that wouldn't be very unlikely IMHO.

I still want to respond to some other reactions in this thread on my earlier posts, but right now I don't have a lot of time for that. Perhaps later today or in the weekend.

 

[DonIago]

Yeah, I'm okay with Picard's views on when morality should trump chain-of-command evolving over time.

I just don't think this was necessarily one of those times.

 

[Tenacity]

they let the Halkans go even though they really really wanted the dilithium on that planet

For this particular line of thought, it might be relevant that the [edit] Halkan world wasn't the only source of dilithium.

Kirk stated he was willing to force his way with Flint to obtain a medical natural resource.

 

[DonIago]

I think you meant Halkan, not Balkan.

 

[Tenacity]

For two, Harry Mudd is a Federation subject

Unclear, Starfleet had records on Mudd, and he committed a offense in a area where Starfleet had the power to arrest him. Just because you're a Human, doesn't mean you're from a planet in the Federation.

As I said previously, Ru'afo was quick enough to kill Dougherty and throw the switch on the collector thingy with people still down on the planet as soon as it looked like he wouldn't get what he wanted.

I think that was a case of Ru'afo being desperate and frustrated, he had been informed that the genetic manipulation treatment that he had receiving would no longer work. This was probably true of all the S'ona, or they were getting near.

Up to that point the S'ona were taking care not to kill the Ba'ku, and if this whole thing was evil and underhanded right from the start, then killing them would have been step one.

(and yet some people here would have us believe he's in the right)

In killing Dougherty and switching on the collector with people on the planet? No.

In removing (or attempting to do so) the Ba'ku and subsequently collecting the particles, yes.

 

[Tosk]

The Son'a had to cooperate per the involvement of the Federation. You think they would have bothered to gently move the Son'a if it was completely up to them? Maybe, but I doubt it.

 

[DonIago]

We know at least some of the Son'a had reservations about active violence toward the Baku, so I don't think we can know one way or another. As I said, I think plan A was to work with the Feds to relocate the Baku, and Ru'afo mostly engaged in plan B, activate the collector and damn the Baku, because he let his impatience get the better of him, and once he killed Dougherty he probably wasn't to get any further Federation cooperation.

 

[Tenacity]

You think they would have bothered to gently move the Son'a if it was completely up to them?

When the S'ona took a group of prisoners, a mix of Starfleet and Ba'ku. Starfleet were place in a section of the ship that was lightly shielded. The Ba'ku were put in a different section with no mention of weak shields.

This was after Dougherty was killed and the Enterprise was gone.

The S'ona's actions at this point were completely up to the S'ona.

 

[Tosk]

When the S'ona took a group of prisoners, a mix of Starfleet and Ba'ku. Starfleet were place in a section of the ship that was lightly shielded. The Ba'ku were put in a different section with no mention of weak shields.

Can you pinpoint that scene a little better, please? I do not recall it at all.

The only brig scene I remember had Picard in with the Ba'ku, and Dougherty was still alive. (And no talk of shielding either way.) It's also the scene where Ruafo states plainly that anyone who doesn't leave the planet will die in six hours.

 

[Commishsleer]

For this particular line of thought, it might be relevant that the [edit] Halkan world wasn't the only source of dilithium.

Kirk stated he was willing to force his way with Flint to obtain a medical natural resource.

In TOS it seemed that dilithium was a rare resource. Very valuable. So its loss wasn't insignificant

Its interesting that it was stated that Flint purchased and owned the world and therefore Kirk had no "Federation" rights to the planet (unless there were some responsibility world owners had to the Federation we are not told about). So Kirk's action was probably in some way illegal but he was not asking Flint to relocate and move his whole planet and give up his eternal life. All he wanted was something that Flint didn't really care about That wouldn't affect him.

In contrast "Insurrection" was not clear about ownership of the planet. If one person or even 600 people being on a planet were considered "ownership" then clearly Dougherty would have had no chance. Since the Federation had already sent observers there it was in the records that the planet was already occupied so the Admiral would not have successfully lied about that.
So ownership must have had something to do with the sophistication of the people living there otherwise why send the invisible platform to test this. So presumably I'm guessing if the natives were pre-Warp they couldn't be relocated according to the Prime Directive.
I'm guessing that they might have been allowed to relocate them otherwise if other conditions were met since the Prime Directive didn't apply.. Since Picard wasn't arrested for disobeying orders then some of these other conditions must not have been met.
In TNG when borders changed the Cardassians insisted the American Indians be relocated so presumably the Federation had the legal right to move anyone off planets they acquired. Whether they had the moral right might have been a different matter.

If the movie had explained the ownership issue then it might have been a better movie.

 

[Tosk]

If the movie had explained the ownership issue then it might have been a better movie.

But we might have had less to discuss.

 

[MacLeod]

In TOS it seemed that dilithium was a rare resource. Very valuable. So its loss wasn't insignificant

Its interesting that it was stated that Flint purchased and owned the world and therefore Kirk had no "Federation" rights to the planet (unless there were some responsibility world owners had to the Federation we are not told about). So Kirk's action was probably in some way illegal but he was not asking Flint to relocate and move his whole planet and give up his eternal life. All he wanted was something that Flint didn't really care about That wouldn't affect him.

In contrast "Insurrection" was not clear about ownership of the planet. If one person or even 600 people being on a planet were considered "ownership" then clearly Dougherty would have had no chance. Since the Federation had already sent observers there it was in the records that the planet was already occupied so the Admiral would not have successfully lied about that.
So ownership must have had something to do with the sophistication of the people living there otherwise why send the invisible platform to test this. So presumably I'm guessing if the natives were pre-Warp they couldn't be relocated according to the Prime Directive.
I'm guessing that they might have been allowed to relocate them otherwise if other conditions were met since the Prime Directive didn't apply.. Since Picard wasn't arrested for disobeying orders then some of these other conditions must not have been met.
In TNG when borders changed the Cardassians insisted the American Indians be relocated so presumably the Federation had the legal right to move anyone off planets they acquired. Whether they had the moral right might have been a different matter.

If the movie had explained the ownership issue then it might have been a better movie.

Except in the case of the borders changing between the UFP and CU they where moving Federation citizens, the Ba'ku aren't Federation citizens and as such the Federation has no right to move them.

 

[Vger23]

I tried watching this last night. It was on one of the cable movie stations (Encore maybe?) that I get, and I figured I'd give it a whirl.

I must say, it' s virtually unwatchable. I hadn't seen it in 5-6 years, and I was hoping that time and "fresh eyes" would give me a better, kinder perspective on this movie.

It did not.

It's amazing how BAD the visual effects are. They looked more amateurish and cartoony than TOS-R...and the humor / silliness misses the mark so very badly on almost every occasion. Its other attempts at levity come off as uncharacteristically sickly-sweet nonsense (like the final scene on the Ba'Ku planet "Goodbye Data"....ugh fuck me).

I am now convinced this is the only truly irredeemable movie in the Star Trek franchise. Other than cinematography / direction and some cool location stuff...it has NOTHING.

 

[Tenacity]

the Ba'ku aren't Federation citizens and ...

But the planet was a federation planet.

... and as such the Federation has no right to move them

The federation wasn't moving them owing to trespass, politics, or ego, but to keep them from being killed.

If the rings could have been collected without danger to the Ba'ku, the Ba'ku likely would have been left where they were.

 

[MacLeod]

The planet was within Federation that much is accurate, But with people living on it since before the Federation was founded does that make it a Federation planet? How many inhabitaed worlds fall within Federation space that aren't part of the Federation? Does that mean the Federation can just do what they want wih the those worlds?

 

[Commishsleer]

The planet was within Federation that much is accurate, But with people living on it since before the Federation was founded does that make it a Federation planet? How many inhabitaed worlds fall within Federation space that aren't part of the Federation? Does that mean the Federation can just do what they want wih the those worlds?

Yes its seems bad but I harp back to Halkan in TOS where presumably the planet was right in the middle of Federation territory and the Feds decided not to take it over.
Hopefully the only reason the Federation would even consider relocating the Baku was the Baku were not native to the planet. I hate to think the Federation are like the Vogons from Hitchikers.

However I wonder what would happen to these neutral worlds in war-time. Whether the Federation would violate their right to independence and what the Federation stood for- if they were desperate.

 

[Smellmet]

I tried watching this last night. It was on one of the cable movie stations (Encore maybe?) that I get, and I figured I'd give it a whirl.

I must say, it' s virtually unwatchable. I hadn't seen it in 5-6 years, and I was hoping that time and "fresh eyes" would give me a better, kinder perspective on this movie.

It did not.

It's amazing how BAD the visual effects are. They looked more amateurish and cartoony than TOS-R...and the humor / silliness misses the mark so very badly on almost every occasion. Its other attempts at levity come off as uncharacteristically sickly-sweet nonsense (like the final scene on the Ba'Ku planet "Goodbye Data"....ugh fuck me).

I am now convinced this is the only truly irredeemable movie in the Star Trek franchise. Other than cinematography / direction and some cool location stuff...it has NOTHING.

Couldn't agree more. The visual effects in FC, especially GEN, hell even TUC are better. Which is a travesty.

I think this film is more or less on a par with TFF.

It's a boring, badly plotted, shoddily presented movie. I don't even care for the score in it, it's just typical going through the motions 90's goldsmith.

Nemesis, for all it's faults (and it has many) is a way better watch. At least there's some stakes and excitement in it. Like you say, this has... nothing.

 

[Vger23]

Couldn't agree more. The visual effects in FC, especially GEN, hell even TUC are better. Which is a travesty.

I think this film is more or less on a par with TFF.

It's a boring, badly plotted, shoddily presented movie. I don't even care for the score in it, it's just typical going through the motions 90's goldsmith.

Nemesis, for all it's faults (and it has many) is a way better watch. At least there's some stakes and excitement in it. Like you say, this has... nothing.

I know most view TFF as a pile of stinky garbage...but for me, TFF is Citizen Kane compared to INS.

While there are some truly awful things about TFF, there are also some admittedly truly great things as well. There's almost NOTHING that is even "good" in INS. It's the only Star Trek movie I am able to make that claim about.