Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

[Anwar]

They couldn't afford to do major changes to the ship model back in 1995. If they'd done the show in the 2000s then it'd be easier to change the CGI models they'd be using then. That's how Enterprise got away with it, as well as NuBSG.

Moore is a whiner anyways. He had his own chance to do all that in nuBSG and he still blew it himself with nonsense like how they make booze out of algae and how they never ran out of Nukes or how they could make new Vipers on the ship.

He has no idea what it's like to deal with Network pressure, and when he did have network pressure on him he ran off crying like a baby.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I'd expect more noticeable changes over the years than scratches in the paintwork!

What if they had a seven-year supply of miraculous Ron Popeil and Billy Mays products before heading into the Badlands? A little Borg-Damage-B-Gone would seal up that hull breach.

 

[KaraBear]

They couldn't afford to do major changes to the ship model back in 1995. If they'd done the show in the 2000s then it'd be easier to change the CGI models they'd be using then. That's how Enterprise got away with it, as well as NuBSG.

Moore is a whiner anyways. He had his own chance to do all that in nuBSG and he still blew it himself with nonsense like how they make booze out of algae and how they never ran out of Nukes or how they could make new Vipers on the ship.

He has no idea what it's like to deal with Network pressure, and when he did have network pressure on him he ran off crying like a baby.

I still absolutely LOVE BSG!!

 

[Stoo]

Moore is a whiner anyways. He had his own chance to do all that in nuBSG and he still blew it himself with nonsense like how they make booze out of algae and how they never ran out of Nukes or how they could make new Vipers on the ship.

Huh? BSG was very convincing in its depiction of a fleet with limited supplies and no dry-dock to go for an overhaul. (and an enormous ship like a Battlestar making simple fighters isn't that hard to swallow. Skilled pilots were the more limiting factor anyway).

Also, iirc in Scorpion we saw Voyager with borg greeblies attached, and in Year of Hell it was pretty bashed up. So modifying the model clearly wasn't impossible.

 

[Anwar]

NuBSG had cheats that VOY didn't have:

1) They never had to restock weapons after the first episode. No one complained. Yet everyone complains over VOY having torpedoes.

2) They could make new Vipers, but folks couldn't believe VOY could make new shuttles.

3) They had a big fleet in VOY to pull new crewmembers or characters out of nowhere, yet when VOY tried to make recurring characters everyone complained they shouldn't have any.

4) NuBSG's damage was all window dressing, it never impacted the core working of the ship, it was just scars on the outer hull.

As for Voyager in "Year of Hell", they only had the money to make the changes for that story. It wasn't sustainable beyond that instance. That's why they reset it all. That and the network saying no to continuing it.

See, the premise included a bit about how they could never have any support at all. They'd NEED support to keep the ship running. So they shot themselves in the foot because if they'd sustained the damage from "Year of Hell" they'd never be able to fix it and the show would be over.

 

[MacLeod]

NuBSG had cheats that VOY didn't have:

1) They never had to restock weapons after the first episode. No one complained. Yet everyone complains over VOY having torpedoes.

2) They could make new Vipers, but folks couldn't believe VOY could make new shuttles.

3) They had a big fleet in VOY to pull new crewmembers or characters out of nowhere, yet when VOY tried to make recurring characters everyone complained they shouldn't have any.

4) NuBSG's damage was all window dressing, it never impacted the core working of the ship, it was just scars on the outer hull.

As for Voyager in "Year of Hell", they only had the money to make the changes for that story. It wasn't sustainable beyond that instance. That's why they reset it all. That and the network saying no to continuing it.

See, the premise included a bit about how they could never have any support at all. They'd NEED support to keep the ship running. So they shot themselves in the foot because if they'd sustained the damage from "Year of Hell" they'd never be able to fix it and the show would be over.

1.>Yes but unlike VOY, nuBSG never said something along the lines of "We only have 38 photon torpedeos with no way to replace them"

2.>I seem to recall them mentioning that building the Blackbird was a major achievment and the first new fighter they had build. Pegasus was stated as having the ability to manufacture Vipers.

3.>Not sure what you mean, people gerenally complain that they didn't have enough recurring characters along the lines of Carey.

4.>A battle scared hull was better than seemingly no damage at all, and besides in the final season it was made clear that structuraly due to all the hyperspace jumps and battle inflicting damage the Galactica wasn't in great shape.

 

[KaraBear]

NuBSG had cheats that VOY didn't have:

1) They never had to restock weapons after the first episode. No one complained. Yet everyone complains over VOY having torpedoes.

2) They could make new Vipers, but folks couldn't believe VOY could make new shuttles.

3) They had a big fleet in VOY to pull new crewmembers or characters out of nowhere, yet when VOY tried to make recurring characters everyone complained they shouldn't have any.

4) NuBSG's damage was all window dressing, it never impacted the core working of the ship, it was just scars on the outer hull.

As for Voyager in "Year of Hell", they only had the money to make the changes for that story. It wasn't sustainable beyond that instance. That's why they reset it all. That and the network saying no to continuing it.

See, the premise included a bit about how they could never have any support at all. They'd NEED support to keep the ship running. So they shot themselves in the foot because if they'd sustained the damage from "Year of Hell" they'd never be able to fix it and the show would be over.

1.>Yes but unlike VOY, nuBSG never said something along the lines of "We only have 38 photon torpedeos with no way to replace them"

2.>I seem to recall them mentioning that building the Blackbird was a major achievment and the first new fighter they had build. Pegasus was stated as having the ability to manufacture Vipers.

3.>Not sure what you mean, people gerenally complain that they didn't have enough recurring characters along the lines of Carey.

4.>A battle scared hull was better than seemingly no damage at all, and besides in the final season it was made clear that structuraly due to all the hyperspace jumps and battle inflicting damage the Galactica wasn't in great shape.

does it need to be flat out said that they had a limited supply of ammo? In the mini series they restocked, but after that when did they restock? it's valid reasoning that there is a finite number of ammo both for the ship and for sidearms

and they never mentioned ay structural issues with the galactica until a few episodes before the end

 

[Bad Thoughts]

NuBSG had cheats that VOY didn't have:

1) They never had to restock weapons after the first episode. No one complained. Yet everyone complains over VOY having torpedoes.

2) They could make new Vipers, but folks couldn't believe VOY could make new shuttles.

3) They had a big fleet in VOY to pull new crewmembers or characters out of nowhere, yet when VOY tried to make recurring characters everyone complained they shouldn't have any.

4) NuBSG's damage was all window dressing, it never impacted the core working of the ship, it was just scars on the outer hull.

As for Voyager in "Year of Hell", they only had the money to make the changes for that story. It wasn't sustainable beyond that instance. That's why they reset it all. That and the network saying no to continuing it.

See, the premise included a bit about how they could never have any support at all. They'd NEED support to keep the ship running. So they shot themselves in the foot because if they'd sustained the damage from "Year of Hell" they'd never be able to fix it and the show would be over.

1.>Yes but unlike VOY, nuBSG never said something along the lines of "We only have 38 photon torpedeos with no way to replace them"

2.>I seem to recall them mentioning that building the Blackbird was a major achievment and the first new fighter they had build. Pegasus was stated as having the ability to manufacture Vipers.

3.>Not sure what you mean, people gerenally complain that they didn't have enough recurring characters along the lines of Carey.

4.>A battle scared hull was better than seemingly no damage at all, and besides in the final season it was made clear that structuraly due to all the hyperspace jumps and battle inflicting damage the Galactica wasn't in great shape.

If I am not mistaken, the process of supplying and repairing Galactica was a constant plot point--it was certainly not avoided. Some of the concerns are easy to address: only one Blackbird was ever built, out of spare parts, no less; a new supply of Vipers was found, but at no small cost--conflict with the crew of Pegasus; nukes were never extensively used by Galactica, whose primary battle role was to provide cover for the retreating fleet. Finding food, water and living space carried over into several episodes, grinding the fleet to a halt and exposing it to attack. Every attempt to repair and resupply the ship was a trade-off.

Of course, that doesn't mean Ronald Moore is above criticism. At times he's the king of no-splainin' (where was Kara?). However, this was a matter that was addressed extensively, allowing us to criticize its believability. Voyager usually left us in the dark about this.

 

[Stoo]

Yeah the structural damage to Galactica became a major plot point in the last season.

Also worth remembering, as a carrier it was only semi-functional from the very start, ie only one landing bay was operating.

See, the premise included a bit about how they could never have any support at all. They'd NEED support to keep the ship running. So they shot themselves in the foot because if they'd sustained the damage from "Year of Hell" they'd never be able to fix it and the show would be over.

I don't know if this is meant to be arguing with me or what?. I'm only discussing how I would do a show like this differently, and I've never said that a lack of federation support means never getting any repair work done.

 

[Anwar]

I'm saying that the premise as is said "No Support". That doesn't mean "No Federation Support", it means "No Support from anyone. No allying with aliens. No stopping at alien stations for repair work."

Absolutely no help from anyone, ever.

And Galactica's damage was only a plot point in the very last episodes.

 

[Melakon]

Why is a ship the size of Voyager even being compared with the behemoth of the Galactica?

 

[R. Star]

It's kinda funny how often the word "everyone" is being used to argue all sides of the debate here.

 

[Melakon]

And it's turning into a NuBSG thread, while I'm only familiar with the Ben Cartwright version.

 

[Anwar]

Why is a ship the size of Voyager even being compared with the behemoth of the Galactica?

So if VOY was some big Battleship, you wouldn't mind the comparison.

 

[Melakon]

I don't see what BSG has to do with Voyager other than they're both spaceships in different universes.

 

[KaraBear]

I don't see what BSG has to do with Voyager other than they're both spaceships in different universes.

it's funny, I've heard a lot of people compare the two shows. Maybe because they're both about ships trying to reach earth. But really, how can you compare the shows? Their core principles are so different. BSG was basically the worst case scenario of the "future", no advanced technology, still had disease, poverty, petty bickering, and the bad guys won and destroyed everyone

Trek has always been the best case scenario of the future. Advanced technology, no disease that can't be easily cured, no starvation, nobody is poor, even the mentality of people is completely different.

that's why voyager always looked nice

 

[JarodRussell]

That's a misinterpretation of the Queen. The Queen IS the Borg. The collective is self conscious. It's a giant brain. And the Queen is the result of that brain.

The Queen is not the leader of a Borg hive mind. She is the collective mind.

"The Borg" is/are a single individual represented by a female. And that individual was lonely. And Picard was amazing enough that she wanted him to be a special drone with individuality so she wouldn't be alone anymore.

Which would be a contradiction of what Hugh says in I, Borg. He talks about the voices (plural) of his brethren that he hears. They are not centered or centralized. They are collected. Indeed, that is in essence what was observed in previous episodes, that the strength of the borg was in not having any sort of centralization.

Again, not quite getting it. There is no centralization. Where is your consciousness centralized? See Borg drones as brain neurons communicating with each other. The grand result of that collective communication is one individual consciousness ("The Borg"), just like the interaction of all your brain cells results in one individual consciousness ("You").

 

[Guy Gardener]

Replaced?

Everyone on that ship would have been bumped up two grades, well the junior grades who have somewhere to be promoted to that isn't ridiculously beyond their actual capabilities... And since every position on that ship requires a specific rank... Lo they can't have a mere Ensign going about a mighty Lieutenants very difficult duties, they also can't have a Lieutenant wasting his (or her.) time doing the work of a mere simple dim Ensign. A mass of promotions would mean that there are no more junior officers and not enough room to retain all the new mid level officers, and the multitude rising to the flag ranks.

Taking all that as fact, which you can chose not to, Picard would probably have had to replace half his crew... Or Riker would have had to, since "crew" (human resources.) is what the bulk of the first officer's job is mostly about.

 

[Anwar]

That's a misinterpretation of the Queen. The Queen IS the Borg. The collective is self conscious. It's a giant brain. And the Queen is the result of that brain.

The Queen is not the leader of a Borg hive mind. She is the collective mind.

"The Borg" is/are a single individual represented by a female. And that individual was lonely. And Picard was amazing enough that she wanted him to be a special drone with individuality so she wouldn't be alone anymore.

Which would be a contradiction of what Hugh says in I, Borg. He talks about the voices (plural) of his brethren that he hears. They are not centered or centralized. They are collected. Indeed, that is in essence what was observed in previous episodes, that the strength of the borg was in not having any sort of centralization.

Again, not quite getting it. There is no centralization. Where is your consciousness centralized? See Borg drones as brain neurons communicating with each other. The grand result of that collective communication is one individual consciousness ("The Borg"), just like the interaction of all your brain cells results in one individual consciousness ("You").

Not sure if that works best, because if you shoot a bullet through a guy's brain it'll usually kill all of him. If you kill a bunch of Borg Drones I don't think that would result in a Cube's destruction.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Which would be a contradiction of what Hugh says in I, Borg. He talks about the voices (plural) of his brethren that he hears. They are not centered or centralized. They are collected. Indeed, that is in essence what was observed in previous episodes, that the strength of the borg was in not having any sort of centralization.

Again, not quite getting it. There is no centralization. Where is your consciousness centralized? See Borg drones as brain neurons communicating with each other. The grand result of that collective communication is one individual consciousness ("The Borg"), just like the interaction of all your brain cells results in one individual consciousness ("You").

Not sure if that works best, because if you shoot a bullet through a guy's brain it'll usually kill all of him. If you kill a bunch of Borg Drones I don't think that would result in a Cube's destruction.

The problem is that "hive" can be used euphemistically to describe numerous types of group interactions and decision making processes that it can differ greatly from the behavior of hive-based insects. Do the Borg literally live like bees, having their instincts written such that the objectives of the hive can't be affected by the input of individuals? the suggestion is that clearly in cannot be. On the other hand, Hugh's revelations about multiple voices makes it seem that the Borg cannot completely overwrite individual consciousness, perhaps integrating it and harmonizing it with the whole instead. Hugh's "On a Borg ship we live with the thoughts of the others in our minds. Thousands of voices with us always" stands in contradiction to the queen's "One order, one voice." There is a distinction between groupthink and a hive mind.