Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

[zar]

As predicted. You never disappoint.

 

[Anwar]

If there was ever an occasion where Picard and co DID run away out of fear, you'd have a case. They never did, so you have nothing to say with the "Janeway would do what Picard would do" line since Picard never did that. What Picard and co DID do was beat the Borg and stop them dead in their tracks.

 

[zar]

If there was ever an occasion where Picard and co DID run away out of fear, you'd have a case.

The "case" you're referring to is yours, not mine.

You are the only one here who's positing that the only possible scenario involving Borg victories in VOY would have had to look something like this:

- Voyager flies up to a planet, Borg are attacking
- Voyager runs away
- Borg win
- Roll credits

You have consistently disregarded with no good reason (other than your usual "the audience would hate it" bullshit) our repeated attempts to disclaim that case:

"Voyager doesn't stop the Borg or save the entire planet" does not have to mean "Voyager is completely ineffectual and ever last member of that species is assimilated." There are DOZENS of ways that a story along those lines could go (no I'm not going to list them all out, and no, failing to do so doesn't make me a hater).

Now, they might try something ELSE (get reinforcements, try and create a diversion, etc.) rather than just leave the people to their fate, but they wouldn't just attack. Neither would (or should) Voyager, in that situation, and there's no reason they couldn't have done one of those other things to try and help.

They weren't just spineless cowards, they were keeping priorities. Now, see if you can stretch that imagination and picture a similar scenario that could have happened in VOY, and you see our point.

showing a defeat doesn't preclude an eventual happy ending.

So it would seem, once again, that you are arguing with yourself. While some of us are actually trying to defend the show's potential, YOU are the one refusing to give VOY any chance, even hypothetically -- arguing that in every possible circumstance it would still fail and be hated.

We get it.

You hate VOY.

 

[Anwar]

You are the only one here who's positing that the only possible scenario involving Borg victories in VOY would have had to look something like this:

- Voyager flies up to a planet, Borg are attacking
- Voyager runs away
- Borg win
- Roll credits

You want to keep the Borg as effective villains (the way TNG overpowered them) this is pretty much the standard.

"Voyager doesn't stop the Borg or save the entire planet" does not have to mean "Voyager is completely ineffectual and ever last member of that species is assimilated."

If VOY is effective against the Borg, the Borg are weakened. If the Borg don't assimilate everyone present, then they're also weakened.

They weren't just spineless cowards, they were keeping priorities. Now, see if you can stretch that imagination and picture a similar scenario that could have happened in VOY, and you see our point.

VOY doesn't have any higher priority or missions other than "save our own skins and run back home". That's the premise of the show. Everything else is secondary, meaning there's no room for "We have a more important mission to accomplish, we can't stop to help." DS9 could tell that type of scenario because there was more at stake than their lives and they had actual missions to perform. VOY had none of that.

showing a defeat doesn't preclude an eventual happy ending.

A defeat that entails the utter decimation of an entire planet and its species, wherein the "heroes" were unable or unwilling to do anything but run away crying doesn't lend itself to anything but a bittersweet ending at best that still paints the "heroes" in a bad light for the rest of the series because of their failure/cowardice especially compared to the heroism of their peers/predecessors.

Kirk can fight Gods and save worlds from destruction at the hands of powerful invaders/destroyers.

Picard can defeat the Borg every major Invasion they send against the Federation.

Sisko can defeat the Dominion in their war for conquest of the Alpha/Beta Quadrants.

VOY's crew can...fail against the Borg and then run away, or just run away at the sight of the Borg despite their victims begging them for help the whole way through because if they manage to do anything significant the Borg will have been weakened as villains.

 

[exodus]

These are very generalized statements. And unfortunately, arguments surrounding them have gone in circles in this thread. I really thought it was going to be one that would become an interesting reference about the Borg in Star Trek. Instead, it just goes on and on and on... not really accomplishing anything except that the realization that the debate has been going nowhere, thanks to original poster #2.

I don't think it's fair to put the blame solely on one posters shoulders.
It takes two to tango.
It would have been the debate/conversation you were looking for if all parties would just agree to disagree and then push the topic forward.

 

[zar]

You just reaffirmed everything I just said, so I don't see any point in responding to most of it, but I can't get over this part:

... there's no room for "We have a more important mission to accomplish, we can't stop to help." DS9 could tell that type of scenario because there was more at stake than their lives and they had actual missions to perform.

If the Defiant had uncloaked there they would have likely been killed. You say the only reason this worked in DS9 was because they had a "more important" mission, and therefore had a valid reason for backing out.

Meaning that, if they hadn't had that more important mission to get to, the suicidal rescue attempt would have been the right thing to do.

Do you seriously believe that?

 

[Anwar]

If they were randomly flying around, heard that the Klingons (who weren't their enemies at the time) were fighting the Cardassians and ran into a debris field and then decided not to do anything because they might get attacked (by whom? Why would either of those guys attack them?)? Yeah, I'd question them and their ethics.

Now, if there was some greater purpose in "Voyager" beyond "Running away and saving our own skins" as the central plot then I could accept them taking on the Borg if they attack a world and then having to withdraw in failure.

But there wasn't.

 

[zar]

heard that the Klingons (who weren't their enemies at the time) were fighting the Cardassians and ran into a debris field and then decided not to do anything because they might get attacked (by whom? Why would either of those guys attack them?)?

 

[Anwar]

Take away the whole point of their mission (The Klingon/Cardassian conflict), then yeah it does come off as cowardly that they randomly come across a debris field while flying around for no reason and just decide that since there's a possibility it might be a trap set by...someone...they better just keep flying around.

You want to do a story where VOY finds a world under Borg attack and abandons these people? Give them a damn better reason than "We're scared" because that just doesn't fly especially considering the selflessness of their predecessors and contemporaries.

 

[zar]

The phrase "suicidal rescue attempt" was part of the question. You completely avoided the question by removing that. We've reached the point where you can't even go a single sentence without turning it into a question of two extremes, so I'm out. See you next year.

 

[Gary7]

I don't think it's fair to put the blame solely on one posters shoulders.
It takes two to tango.
It would have been the debate/conversation you were looking for if all parties would just agree to disagree and then push the topic forward.

Well, one person is seeing gaping holes, changed arguments where first assertions are later contradicted and such, so he's trying to bring attention to that. But the other person isn't seeing it... or just simply choosing to ignore it. And thus, the debate continues. I'm amazed it has gone on this long, actually. But judging from the last post, it may finally be over. He realizes it is pointless to continue.


I find it absurd to make any claim that the Voyager crew are spineless cowards always running for home. We've seen plenty of cases where they put up one hell of a fight, or seek to help another species out rather than "run away". Whoops... I'm participating again. "Argument is futile."

 

[Anwar]

It's easy:

VOY fights off any of their own original enemies (Kazon, Vidiians, Krenim, Hirogen) or they get help to fight them off and the audience is "Alright, I still hate all of VOY's original creations but they fought them off and its believable."

VOY encounters the Borg and it's always "They survived an encounter with the Borg, which shouldn't have happened and they all should've died since the Borg are faster than them and their weapons are supposed to be completely ineffective. They've emasculated the Borg by not having them kill everyone."

And this is regardless of how it's done, whether they use trickery or get help or anything.

 

[jpch]

only idiots would say voyager weakened the Borg.they probably dident even watch the show.voyager was always running away from the Borg or getting its butt kicked wake up retards u just hate voy for no reasons at all.

 

[sojourner]

Someone's headed for a banning real quick.

 

[Akiraprise]

only idiots would say voyager weakened the Borg.they probably dident even watch the show.voyager was always running away from the Borg or getting its butt kicked wake up retards u just hate voy for no reasons at all.

Um, VOY did weaken the Borg. Intrepid class Federation starship versus Borg tactical cube. Assimilation in 35.7 seconds tops.
Guess I'm an idiot.

Seriously though, don't be calling people idiots or retards. Thanks.

 

[kimc]

Personally I believe the TNG movie "First Contact" weakened the borg but that's me.

 

[Guy Gardener]

They Spent a lot of money on those Borg Costumes and still lost the academy award for SFX to "Meet the Clumps".

But, DS9 got the new Federation Uniforms and Voyager got the Borg costumes.

Did that seem like a fair divvy?

Behr could have just have easily asked for the Borg Costumes

Maybe there was a coin toss or some sort of contest?

But what if First Contact had been about Romulans instead?

What was Braga and His flunkies in the Voyager writers Room going to do with wardrobe and props for a few dozen Romulans?

The mind boggles.

So does my pants.

Seriously, maybe the Federation wasn't aware that the Romulan Star Empire extended half way into the Delta Quadrant?

Seriously.

It's been two thousand years since they left Vulcan, what have they been doing for the last 2 millennia, if not conquering the weak and befriending the strong across the extended galaxy?

 

[Anwar]

only idiots would say voyager weakened the Borg.they probably dident even watch the show.voyager was always running away from the Borg or getting its butt kicked wake up retards u just hate voy for no reasons at all.

Um, VOY did weaken the Borg. Intrepid class Federation starship versus Borg tactical cube. Assimilation in 35.7 seconds tops.
Guess I'm an idiot.

Seriously though, don't be calling people idiots or retards. Thanks.

We saw a single Galaxy Class last in battle against an Assimilation Cube (which is much stronger) without taking any noticeable damage. Why can't an Intrepid do something similar?

 

[sonak]

It's easy:

VOY fights off any of their own original enemies (Kazon, Vidiians, Krenim, Hirogen) or they get help to fight them off and the audience is "Alright, I still hate all of VOY's original creations but they fought them off and its believable."

VOY encounters the Borg and it's always "They survived an encounter with the Borg, which shouldn't have happened and they all should've died since the Borg are faster than them and their weapons are supposed to be completely ineffective. They've emasculated the Borg by not having them kill everyone."

And this is regardless of how it's done, whether they use trickery or get help or anything.

er, because the Borg are supposed to be stronger than just another enemy. Plus, Voyager's crew has infiltrated Borg headquarters before in just a glorified runabout and emerged unscathed.

the concept of Voyager going up against the Borg just doesn't work believably because the Borg are a powerful collective in their home space and Voyager is one ship. At any time, the Queen could have dispatched a handful of cubes to blow Voyager out of the stars.

 

[Guy Gardener]

only idiots would say voyager weakened the Borg.they probably dident even watch the show.voyager was always running away from the Borg or getting its butt kicked wake up retards u just hate voy for no reasons at all.

Um, VOY did weaken the Borg. Intrepid class Federation starship versus Borg tactical cube. Assimilation in 35.7 seconds tops.
Guess I'm an idiot.

Seriously though, don't be calling people idiots or retards. Thanks.

We saw a single Galaxy Class last in battle against an Assimilation Cube (which is much stronger) without taking any noticeable damage. Why can't an Intrepid do something similar?

Um, which time?

In their first encounter, the Borg played possum, and once they actually started to fight, their chief weapons were designed to drain Enterprises batteries so it would be run aground soon enough and the Borg could dissect their technology at leisure.

Or are you talking about Best of Both Worlds where the Borg ignored almost everything distracting and inconsequential so that they could assimilate Earth with a decapitating strike?

The Borg care about civilizations, not individuals.