Why do i see full captain for small ships like oberths and defiant cla
- Thread starter TEH BABA
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Re: Why do i see full captain for small ships like oberths and defiant
We have never seen a mere Lt. in command of a ship full time. Lt. Cmdr's Dax and worf were both given command of the Defiant for extended periods in DS9 however.
Remember we often see the commanders of these ships on very high profile missions (Esteban for example), or in the case of the Defiant Sisko who of course commanded DS9.
DS9 also establishes the precedent of Commanders holding the command of a starbase, as three full pips is clearly very senior in Starfleet as it is in the real US and royal Navys.
As for other missions - who knows? It is quite possible an older Lt. will be given the command of an old Oberth ferrying passengers and supplies between Vulcan and Earth or so forth - we never see these ships but there must be hundreds who do little more.
Also in the Dominion war it is likely those hundreds of old Mirandas and Frankensteins thrown into the fray did not rate a full Captain...
It is really only in early TNG we see Captains running everything, and the fact Starfleet's mission is so varied and the ships do so much probably means the mission a ship undertakes is as important as the tactical abilities of the ship.
We have never seen a mere Lt. in command of a ship full time. Lt. Cmdr's Dax and worf were both given command of the Defiant for extended periods in DS9 however.
Remember we often see the commanders of these ships on very high profile missions (Esteban for example), or in the case of the Defiant Sisko who of course commanded DS9.
DS9 also establishes the precedent of Commanders holding the command of a starbase, as three full pips is clearly very senior in Starfleet as it is in the real US and royal Navys.
As for other missions - who knows? It is quite possible an older Lt. will be given the command of an old Oberth ferrying passengers and supplies between Vulcan and Earth or so forth - we never see these ships but there must be hundreds who do little more.
Also in the Dominion war it is likely those hundreds of old Mirandas and Frankensteins thrown into the fray did not rate a full Captain...
It is really only in early TNG we see Captains running everything, and the fact Starfleet's mission is so varied and the ships do so much probably means the mission a ship undertakes is as important as the tactical abilities of the ship.
Re: Why do i see full captain for small ships like oberths and defiant
The Pegasus was Oberth Class starship. It didn't seem that much smaller next to the Enterprise-D (keep in mind much of the ship was actually embedded into the rock of that asteroid). Yet it still had a full Captain as of around 2358.
Defiants and Mirandas are still fairly large. The ship would be full of Ensigns and Lieutenants....
The Pegasus was Oberth Class starship. It didn't seem that much smaller next to the Enterprise-D (keep in mind much of the ship was actually embedded into the rock of that asteroid). Yet it still had a full Captain as of around 2358.
Defiants and Mirandas are still fairly large. The ship would be full of Ensigns and Lieutenants....
Re: Why do i see full captain for small ships like oberths and defiant
Can take that back to 100100110000111 (that was it, right?) too, I'd say.
Re: Why do i see full captain for small ships like oberths and defiant
In war time, in particular, the navy will put officers less than captian in rank in command of a vessel.
As for peace time in the Trek verse, I don't think it's a problem that you see full captains in command most of the time. With longer lifespans, people would keep working longer before retirement one would assume. And so you would have several senior officers who've risen to four pips who would be available to command even small ships.
There could also be situtations in which Lt. Cmdrs with several years of service could be promoted directly to captain for ships with specific purposes. Say, if a science officer like Data, with decades of experience, were assigned to command a science vessel, etc.
In war time, in particular, the navy will put officers less than captian in rank in command of a vessel.
As for peace time in the Trek verse, I don't think it's a problem that you see full captains in command most of the time. With longer lifespans, people would keep working longer before retirement one would assume. And so you would have several senior officers who've risen to four pips who would be available to command even small ships.
There could also be situtations in which Lt. Cmdrs with several years of service could be promoted directly to captain for ships with specific purposes. Say, if a science officer like Data, with decades of experience, were assigned to command a science vessel, etc.
Re: Why do i see full captain for small ships like oberths and defiant
it's O-3 not 0-3. as in 'officer grade 3'...
it's O-3 not 0-3. as in 'officer grade 3'...
Re: Why do i see full captain for small ships like oberths and defiant
Supply ships and short range science vessels like Mirandas and Oberths should be commanded by Lieutenants.
Ships like Norways, Sabers, Steamrunners etc....commanded by Lt Commanders and Commanders.
Bigger vessels like Galaxies, Sovereigns, Excelsiors etc...commanded by Captains.
A base should be commanded by a Commodore, with perhaps a Defiant class or similar sized ship with it.
A base, a large ship, and command over a sector and small fleet perhaps commanded by an Admiral.
It would at least end the absurdity of a full captain like Isao Talaka commanding a supply ship with a crew of 26 like the Lantree. I mean, which Admiral's daughter did he get pregnant to deserve that?
Supply ships and short range science vessels like Mirandas and Oberths should be commanded by Lieutenants.
Ships like Norways, Sabers, Steamrunners etc....commanded by Lt Commanders and Commanders.
Bigger vessels like Galaxies, Sovereigns, Excelsiors etc...commanded by Captains.
A base should be commanded by a Commodore, with perhaps a Defiant class or similar sized ship with it.
A base, a large ship, and command over a sector and small fleet perhaps commanded by an Admiral.
It would at least end the absurdity of a full captain like Isao Talaka commanding a supply ship with a crew of 26 like the Lantree. I mean, which Admiral's daughter did he get pregnant to deserve that?
Re: Why do i see full captain for small ships like oberths and defiant
I'll agree, for war time. However, during peacetime when most ships are in mothballs, I think Captains would be competing for *any* ship they could get their hands on, and in addition high priority missions like Esteban's to Genesis would warrant an experienced Captain -- and yet they appointed Esteban to an Oberth class ship?
(One might conclude that Starfleet had provided additional security to the region that they felt would protect Grissom from potential attack whereas sending a big, high-profile ship might have garnered undue attention, thus giving a full Captain a rinky-dink scout.)
OTOH, commanding an old unimportant Cardassian mining station in the boonies would only warrant a Commander, unless there was something of greater value discovered nearby.
Such an important CO would certainly gain a promotion in, say, 4 years.
I'll agree, for war time. However, during peacetime when most ships are in mothballs, I think Captains would be competing for *any* ship they could get their hands on, and in addition high priority missions like Esteban's to Genesis would warrant an experienced Captain -- and yet they appointed Esteban to an Oberth class ship?
(One might conclude that Starfleet had provided additional security to the region that they felt would protect Grissom from potential attack whereas sending a big, high-profile ship might have garnered undue attention, thus giving a full Captain a rinky-dink scout.)
OTOH, commanding an old unimportant Cardassian mining station in the boonies would only warrant a Commander, unless there was something of greater value discovered nearby.
Such an important CO would certainly gain a promotion in, say, 4 years.
Re: Why do i see full captain for small ships like oberths and defiant
Silly King, actually expecting that the people who write these things have any idea how real navies and fleets work....
Yeah, you're right, of course, but to the great unwashed, the captain of a ship must be... well, *A* captain. Sigh.
Tony
Silly King, actually expecting that the people who write these things have any idea how real navies and fleets work....
Yeah, you're right, of course, but to the great unwashed, the captain of a ship must be... well, *A* captain. Sigh.
Tony
Re: Why do i see full captain for small ships like oberths and defiant
As far as behind the scenes go, I imagine some of it would be a perception issue, for the audience's sake. Right off the bat ensigns are usually portrayed as worthless clods barely able to dress themselves much less man a station, but they're supposed to be graduates of a 4-year academy that teaches really high-level stuff. Even lieutenants are often barely capable of pushing a button.
So over times the writers have made it so you have spend a lot of time in the trenches before you can be a captain, therefore only persons of the captain rank are actually capable of commanding a ship.
As noted above, putting Jadzia and Worf in command of the Defiant went a long way towards fixing that perception.
As far as behind the scenes go, I imagine some of it would be a perception issue, for the audience's sake. Right off the bat ensigns are usually portrayed as worthless clods barely able to dress themselves much less man a station, but they're supposed to be graduates of a 4-year academy that teaches really high-level stuff. Even lieutenants are often barely capable of pushing a button.
So over times the writers have made it so you have spend a lot of time in the trenches before you can be a captain, therefore only persons of the captain rank are actually capable of commanding a ship.
As noted above, putting Jadzia and Worf in command of the Defiant went a long way towards fixing that perception.
Re: Why do i see full captain for small ships like oberths and defiant
I'd also like to see an end to Ensigns at CONN and hilariously things like Ensign Kim....as OPS manager?
I'd also like to see an end to Ensigns at CONN and hilariously things like Ensign Kim....as OPS manager?
Re: Why do i see full captain for small ships like oberths and defiant
Well, I just touched on this in my post above: an Ensign has just graduated from a 4-year academy that teaches things like warp field mechanics, 3-d astrogation and navigational plotting, etc. If you're going to make the case for an LT or LT CMDR to command a ship, then the junior officers are going to need to be a little sharper than we've usually seen them portrayed.
I admit Harry Kim as OPS mgr on, say, a Galaxy class might be a stretch, but on a little science ship that wasn't planning on going that far from Fed space isn't so hard to swallow.
Well, I just touched on this in my post above: an Ensign has just graduated from a 4-year academy that teaches things like warp field mechanics, 3-d astrogation and navigational plotting, etc. If you're going to make the case for an LT or LT CMDR to command a ship, then the junior officers are going to need to be a little sharper than we've usually seen them portrayed.
I admit Harry Kim as OPS mgr on, say, a Galaxy class might be a stretch, but on a little science ship that wasn't planning on going that far from Fed space isn't so hard to swallow.
Re: Why do i see full captain for small ships like oberths and defiant
^^^^^That would have made a LOT more sense if there had been a more senior ops manager who got killed in the beginning like Stadi, and the the XO and CMO, then Harry had to fill in, somewhat ill-prepared. But, again, they never asked me. And besides, that's for a different post, anyway.
^^^^^That would have made a LOT more sense if there had been a more senior ops manager who got killed in the beginning like Stadi, and the the XO and CMO, then Harry had to fill in, somewhat ill-prepared. But, again, they never asked me. And besides, that's for a different post, anyway.
Re: Why do i see full captain for small ships like oberths and defiant
Most of the Bases I lived on were commanded by an O-6 (Colonel/Captain)
Re: Why do i see full captain for small ships like oberths and defiant
Cool, could you comment on O-1's like Harry Kim and the like? I'm trying to make the case that if you want an O-3 or O-4 commanding a ship, then your O-1's need to be able to do more than just dress themselves.
tks
Cool, could you comment on O-1's like Harry Kim and the like? I'm trying to make the case that if you want an O-3 or O-4 commanding a ship, then your O-1's need to be able to do more than just dress themselves.
tks
Re: Why do i see full captain for small ships like oberths and defiant
The Oberth class are in theory tiny compared to the Ent-D but were not consitently shot that way in TNG. Meh - it is after all just a TV show.
As for the tiny ship being in the care of a Captain - she was testing highly secret equipment, and therefore the mission demanded a senior officer even if the tactical capabilities of the ship did not.
The Oberth class are in theory tiny compared to the Ent-D but were not consitently shot that way in TNG. Meh - it is after all just a TV show.
As for the tiny ship being in the care of a Captain - she was testing highly secret equipment, and therefore the mission demanded a senior officer even if the tactical capabilities of the ship did not.
Re: Why do i see full captain for small ships like oberths and defiant
Why on a ship with a crew of 150-ish would you not have an Ensign as Ops Officer? After all although Starfleet is very officer-heavy compared to the real military there are probably only about 60 officers on Voyager when she leaves dock.
Therefore if the ranks were decided on the strict army basis of how many men you were commanding, the whole ships crew would only be company-sized and rate at most an Army Captain - or o-3 - the equivalent of a naval Lieutenant as the OP suggested.
However - we know both tactically and technologically Voyager was something special - hence Janeway in command, a Lt. Cmdr. as XO. But check out the other senior staff - Chief Engineer and Tactical Lt., Helm Lt. JG, Ops Ensign. Voyager does not have a high ranking crew!
Trek really is fairly internally consistent about this - assuming you put odd boobs like the Lantree commanded by a full Captain down to, as another poster suggested, shagging the Admiral's daughter!
Why on a ship with a crew of 150-ish would you not have an Ensign as Ops Officer? After all although Starfleet is very officer-heavy compared to the real military there are probably only about 60 officers on Voyager when she leaves dock.
Therefore if the ranks were decided on the strict army basis of how many men you were commanding, the whole ships crew would only be company-sized and rate at most an Army Captain - or o-3 - the equivalent of a naval Lieutenant as the OP suggested.
However - we know both tactically and technologically Voyager was something special - hence Janeway in command, a Lt. Cmdr. as XO. But check out the other senior staff - Chief Engineer and Tactical Lt., Helm Lt. JG, Ops Ensign. Voyager does not have a high ranking crew!
Trek really is fairly internally consistent about this - assuming you put odd boobs like the Lantree commanded by a full Captain down to, as another poster suggested, shagging the Admiral's daughter!
Re: Why do i see full captain for small ships like oberths and defiant
With that said, you rarely see 2nd Lietuenants (o-1s) in charge for very long. Considering all the schooling you have to do once you get comissioned, you will be rather close to being an O-2 by the time you actualy take command of something. I would imagine that its similar in the navy. That education is in addition to the 4 years you spend in college getting your gold bar
In the US Army it is correct, O-1s can usually do more than just dress themselves. As someone who will hopefully be an O-1 this may, I truly hope that I dont suck as bad as they are depicted in Trek. At the same time however, O-1s are mostly "book smart". that's why they are usually paired up with an NCO with several years experience. Sort of like a mentorship program.
With that said, you rarely see 2nd Lietuenants (o-1s) in charge for very long. Considering all the schooling you have to do once you get comissioned, you will be rather close to being an O-2 by the time you actualy take command of something. I would imagine that its similar in the navy. That education is in addition to the 4 years you spend in college getting your gold bar
