Why didn't the Zhat Vash target Data and Lore?

[Candlicious Ghost]

Going back to Picard season 1 if the Zhat Vash have been around a long time enough to learn about things like they have why did they never target Starfleet before and try and get Data or Lore to destroy them? Wouldn't those two androids represent their fear?

 

[FredH]

Going back to Picard season 1 if the Zhat Vash have been around a long time enough to learn about things like they have why did they never target Starfleet before and try and get Data or Lore to destroy them? Wouldn't those two androids represent their fear?

Maybe since there were only two, long-term surveillance of them would give the Zhat Vash more and better knowledge about AI, the better for destroying or preventing it in the long run? (And that’s why there were “a host of Romulan cyberneticists” who would’ve loved to get their hands on Data — but paradoxically, actually abducting him would have drawn attention and lessened the amount of intelligence they could gather from his operation in place.)

And Lore probably just killed any who tried.

 

[Candlicious Ghost]

Maybe since there were only two, long-term surveillance of them would give the Zhat Vash more and better knowledge about AI, the better for destroying or preventing it in the long run? (And that’s why there were “a host of Romulan cyberneticists” who would’ve loved to get their hands on Data — but paradoxically, actually abducting him would have drawn attention and lessened the amount of intelligence they could gather from his operation in place.)

And Lore probably just killed any who tried.

That sounds like really good headcanon.

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

The uniqueness of Data was almost certainly a factor, and I’d also argue that Commodore Oh only (presumably) reaching her place in Starfleet after his death played a factor, that inserting an operative in Starfleet Intelligence and having them rise through the ranks takes time.

With the Romulans having been in isolation for fifty-ish years prior to TNG’s first season, Data’s discovery and joining Starfleet might have been off their priority list, and while inserting an operative into Starfleet, getting them to a position of being able to order him into the waiting disassembly team of Zhat Vash agents would then gain focus, it would take time, time in which Data ended up sacrificing himself on the Scimitar before it could come to fruition.

 

[Candlicious Ghost]

The uniqueness of Data was almost certainly a factor, and I’d also argue that Commodore Oh only (presumably) reaching her place in Starfleet after his death played a factor, that inserting an operative in Starfleet Intelligence and having them rise through the ranks takes time.

With the Romulans having been in isolation for fifty-ish years prior to TNG’s first season, Data’s discovery and joining Starfleet might have been off their priority list, and while inserting an operative into Starfleet, getting them to a position of being able to order him into the waiting disassembly team of Zhat Vash agents would then gain focus, it would take time, time in which Data ended up sacrificing himself on the Scimitar before it could come to fruition.

Also really good headcanon

 

[Takeru]

Isn't it also possible that the Zhat Vash were only a fringe group within the romulan empire and didn't have the power to intervene like that before the empire fell and they gained influence? There simply might not have been a way for them to get to Data during TNG.

 

[Toril Toran]

It is possible that they did not know about Data. Howver, it is more likely that it would attract too much attention by by attempting to get to him.
They may not have known about Lore, or B4.

 

[Boo-khat!]

It is possible that they did not know about Data. Howver, it is more likely that it would attract too much attention by by attempting to get to him.
They may not have known about Lore, or B4.

They knew. Sela knew that Data was the captain of the Sutherland during the Klingon civil war. Pardek and Praetor Neral also knew Data was on Romulus masquerading as a Romulan with Picard.

The problem is that the Zhat Vash was a stupid retcon.

 

[Candlicious Ghost]

They knew. Sela knew that Data was the captain of the Sutherland during the Klingon civil war. Pardek and Praetor Neral also knew Data was on Romulus masquerading as a Romulan with Picard.

The problem is that the Zhat Vash was a stupid retcon.

After one last rewatch I agree. But it had some nice moments and ideas, just not well thought out

 

[FredH]

Isn't it also possible that the Zhat Vash were only a fringe group within the romulan empire and didn't have the power to intervene like that before the empire fell and they gained influence? There simply might not have been a way for them to get to Data during TNG.

I’ve seen that argued (that the ZV were a fringe group) — there’s an online YouTube commentator video that insists it’s totally canonical that actually, in the PIC era the Federation and what’s left of the mainstream Romulan state are great friends! — but I think it’s stated in dialogue that the Tal Shiar are the true center of the empire, and the Zhat Vash are the true center of the Tal Shiar.

 

[Takeru]

... but I think it’s stated in dialogue that the Tal Shiar are the true center of the empire, and the Zhat Vash are the true center of the Tal Shiar.

Just because something is stated in dialog doesn't necessarily make it true, the things said about the Zhat Vash were mostly "People say ...", "There are rumors that ..." type of dialog or things said by Zhat Vash members themselves and they'd obviously have a reason to lie.
This was most likely done to allow the Zhat Vash to to be a credible thread that can show up with a fleet of ships while still giving the writers enough wiggle room to not have to escalate into war with the federation and to ignore them afterwards because they were a fringe group after all and the synthetics are no longer in danger.

And of course if the Zhat Vash had alway been that powerful or influential there's no way Data wouldn't have been killed in a shuttle "accident" during or even before TNG. The ronumans pretty easily got to Geordi and turned him into an assassin, there's no way they couldn't have gotten to Data had they wanted to. It would have bene especially easy during Unification where they cold have legally arrested and executed Data and Picard.

 

[Ragitsu]

Vash's first name is "Zhat"?

 

[Candlicious Ghost]

It would have bene especially easy during Unification where they cold have legally arrested and executed Data and Picard.

Legal how exactly?

Vash's first name is "Zhat"?

That was funny

 

[Takeru]

Legal how exactly?

Seriously? Because they were foreign agents infiltrating the capital world of the romulan empire in disguise to work with dissidents against the government.

And the romulans wouldn't even need much of a justification, Picard and Data were on Romulus and because of that subject to romulan law. If there was a law that trampling flowers is punishable by death that too would have been okay.

 

[Candlicious Ghost]

Seriously? Because they were foreign agents infiltrating the capital world of the romulan empire in disguise to work with dissidents against the government.

I've missed a few episodes of TNG, never watched every single one

 

[Uncle Sock]

It's a little bit of a stretch, but hear me out.

The Zhat Vash's existential fear is not of synthetic life per se, but of a specific kind of synthetic evolution — the kind that arises when organic minds create synthetic minds in their own image, especially if those synths begin to self-improve, replicate, and approach or surpass organic consciousness.

This fear is derived from the Admonition, a warning left by an ancient species that had experienced an AI singularity, culminating in the summoning of a cosmic-level threat (e.g., the extra-galactic AI civilization teased in Picard Season 1). According to the Admonition, once a society reaches a critical threshold in AI development, it sends out a signal that brings these synthetic destroyers.

Thus, the Zhat Vash’s primary objective is preventing that threshold from being crossed.

In Star Trek: Picard, it's only when synths like Soji and Dahj—made from Data’s legacy but enhanced via modern methods and biological integration—begin to pass as human, evolve emotionally, and unlock ancient AI knowledge that the Zhat Vash panic and intervene.

Data and Lore, however, were handcrafted, and fully mechanical androids. Their brains were not modeled on any specific human neural pattern. That's why the Zhat Vash could have regarded Data and Lore as "controllable anomalies".

 

[Iamnotspock]

Vash's first name is "Zhat"?

I think Picard wanted to Zhat Vash on Risa.

 

[Candlicious Ghost]

I think Picard wanted to Zhat Vash on Risa.

I think they did several times then she dumped Jean Luc for Q

 

[Guy Gardener]

It's a little bit of a stretch, but hear me out.

The Zhat Vash's existential fear is not of synthetic life per se, but of a specific kind of synthetic evolution — the kind that arises when organic minds create synthetic minds in their own image, especially if those synths begin to self-improve, replicate, and approach or surpass organic consciousness.

This fear is derived from the Admonition, a warning left by an ancient species that had experienced an AI singularity, culminating in the summoning of a cosmic-level threat (e.g., the extra-galactic AI civilization teased in Picard Season 1). According to the Admonition, once a society reaches a critical threshold in AI development, it sends out a signal that brings these synthetic destroyers.

Thus, the Zhat Vash’s primary objective is preventing that threshold from being crossed.

In Star Trek: Picard, it's only when synths like Soji and Dahj—made from Data’s legacy but enhanced via modern methods and biological integration—begin to pass as human, evolve emotionally, and unlock ancient AI knowledge that the Zhat Vash panic and intervene.

Data and Lore, however, were handcrafted, and fully mechanical androids. Their brains were not modeled on any specific human neural pattern. That's why the Zhat Vash could have regarded Data and Lore as "controllable anomalies".

It's the signal.

AI is fine, so long as it is happy.

(Data's daughters were happy?)

(Shut up.)

It was very unlikely that an unenslaved droid happy with their existence, would feel the need to light up a signal to AI God in another universe to come down here to the regular Star Trek Prime Universe, and kill every one.

Native AI can only kill everyone as fast as everyone else who is not AI.

Other dimensional AI gods are so very much faster in dealing to mean monkeys.