Those races are so close to the Federation, but they made first contact with the Federation in the 24th century?
Why Didn't the Cardassians and Ferengi Make First Contact Earlier?
- Thread starter VulcanMindBlown
- Start date
As they were written into Trek storylines much later, the writers may not have thought about it... I guess space is really large but yeah you would of thought two races such as the Ferengi and Cardassians would have been crossing paths with the Federation much earlier... maybe they were and it just wasn't seen in the Trek we saw? The Trill were involved with the Federation earlier than the 24th century and (according to Star Trek Star Charts and Stellar Cartography) they are reasonably closer to Cardassian space...
Those races are so close to the Federation, but they made first contact with the Federation in the 24th century?
Both races made contact in the 22nd century. The Ferengi were featured in the Enterprise episode Acquisition. Meanwhile, there was a Cardassian poet living on Vulcan in the 22nd century, who was friends with a Dax host and the Cardassians are known to humans in the Abramsverse.
I think that Cardassians were around, just not politically important until they fought a war with the Federation.
The Ferengi are harder to explain. The first contact with them seems to e pretty explicitly shown in TNG, though there were rumors circulating before that. One might assume that their long history was in relatively small areas, perhaps their warp technology was considerably more limited than we are ever told and they didn't acquire faster engines until the middle/early 24th Century. Starfleet missions could have just hit around their space randomly, like missing a target while playing Battleship.
--Alex
The Ferengi are harder to explain. The first contact with them seems to e pretty explicitly shown in TNG, though there were rumors circulating before that. One might assume that their long history was in relatively small areas, perhaps their warp technology was considerably more limited than we are ever told and they didn't acquire faster engines until the middle/early 24th Century. Starfleet missions could have just hit around their space randomly, like missing a target while playing Battleship.
--Alex
There's nothing to say the Cardassians weren't first contacted whenever. Maybe they were quiet in the 23rd century or just weren't developed enough to appear on the Feds radar as anything like a priority.
The Ferengi are a bit trickier as they seem to have been somewhat forgotten about when they turned up in TNG season one as something of a mystery to our heroes.
The Ferengi are a bit trickier as they seem to have been somewhat forgotten about when they turned up in TNG season one as something of a mystery to our heroes.
I don't think there's anything to explain about the Ferengi failure to make contact. They are concerned about their reputation - and, 'em being the Ferengi, contact automatically ruins that reputation (see e.g. "The Nagus")! So they prefer to remain anonymous, especially the ones living on piracy.
Basically, then, Ferengi first contact might be a fuzzy affair spanning centuries for each party involved...
And Cardassians were indeed a known quantity back in the 22nd century. There's no telling whether they were known to Vulcans or Andorians in the 12th or 2nd century already, but why not? Some Trek cultures just don't change all that much in a millennium.
Timo Saloniemi
Basically, then, Ferengi first contact might be a fuzzy affair spanning centuries for each party involved...
And Cardassians were indeed a known quantity back in the 22nd century. There's no telling whether they were known to Vulcans or Andorians in the 12th or 2nd century already, but why not? Some Trek cultures just don't change all that much in a millennium.
Timo Saloniemi
True, but I got the impression that Cardassia had been the center of a Republic but took a turn for the worse sometime in the couple of generations before Gul Madred was born.
I don't know if the Cardassians have been a warp civilization much longer than humans. It's confirmed at least that in the 1500s the Cardassians had not achieved space travel and I don't think it's ever stated when they did. But when Garak talks about Cardassian art it does not seem like a recent development that Cardassian culture is about order and duty to the state. They probably invaded Bajor very shortly after they became able to, which was only fifty years before the start of DS9.
It could be Cardassia only became a warp culture shortly before Earth, and it wasn't until the early 24th century that they had a strong enough military to expand.
As for the Ferengi, maybe they just saw commerce with the Federation as a poor business opportunity.
It could be Cardassia only became a warp culture shortly before Earth, and it wasn't until the early 24th century that they had a strong enough military to expand.
As for the Ferengi, maybe they just saw commerce with the Federation as a poor business opportunity.
Or possibly their leadership gathered enough intel to determine that the Federation would be a corrupting influence - and they were right!
The Cardassians were a chaotic civilian society that had a high cultural level of achievement but widespread poverty and then the military took over, implemented concentrated farming that "fed" the people and put people back to work whilst demolishing or selling archeological treasures to support it all. Dunno about the timescale but Gul Madred lived in poverty in his youth so maybe it was then. That was the jive coming out of the Chain of Command episode.
And in terms of traversing large amounts of space, it was found that it was the Bajorans that "discovered" the Cardassians in the episode where Jake and Sisko do their experiment. But it was warp distance so to speak using some other device than 'warp drive' . They built "sails" that carried them on or something like that.
And in terms of traversing large amounts of space, it was found that it was the Bajorans that "discovered" the Cardassians in the episode where Jake and Sisko do their experiment. But it was warp distance so to speak using some other device than 'warp drive' . They built "sails" that carried them on or something like that.
Garak talked about the 'repetitive epic' like it was a historical classic and not the work of a current author. And in that repetitive epic, there were seven generations of Cardassians who did their duty to the state. I don't know if the growth of the military is recent, but the Cardassian mindset that the state is always right has existed for a least a couple hundred years.
Sounds like a propaganda piece from the current regime (or possibly from the last generation or two of it). And maybe they "inserted it into history" by attributing it to an author in older times, to give it more weight and make it seem to the people as though that is "how it has always been".
Or maybe Cardassians really do have a predisposition to a Chinese-like mindset in that regard, and at times in their history, they have been led well, and more recently, not so much.
Or maybe Cardassians really do have a predisposition to a Chinese-like mindset in that regard, and at times in their history, they have been led well, and more recently, not so much.
Well, I think of the Cardassians my mind goes back to prewar Japan. There you had a very highly strung warrior tradition and a powerful, brutal and expansionist military. But you also had a surprising bustling parliamentary life half modelled -- if only in style - on the British system that had little influence as to what the military branches were getting up to as they went off to build their empire in the most brutal fashion.
I see the Cardassians and to a lesser degree the Romulans and Klingons in the same way. A military building its power bloc but doing its own thing leaving the civilian politicians at home to argue the toss about things. So we have civilian and military cultures co-existing within the CU.
When we met the Cardassians it's clear that the military has gained ascendancy with the help of the real power, the Obsidian Order whilst the civilians are left technically in power rubber stamping decisions. That's my sense of things.
I see the Cardassians and to a lesser degree the Romulans and Klingons in the same way. A military building its power bloc but doing its own thing leaving the civilian politicians at home to argue the toss about things. So we have civilian and military cultures co-existing within the CU.
When we met the Cardassians it's clear that the military has gained ascendancy with the help of the real power, the Obsidian Order whilst the civilians are left technically in power rubber stamping decisions. That's my sense of things.
The Cardassians are easily explained away and they have been already by other posters in the thread. The Ferengi cannot and will not ever make any sense. There's no way the Federation with all the many planets that form it never encountered the Ferengi before The Last Outpost. Let's face it, once seen they are never forgotten. Rumours my butt!
If all Ferengi acted like the ones in The Last Outpost it wouldn't be difficult to see why they had trouble making their way out into the galaxy. I'm surprised they managed to put their furry boots on the right feet. But we know from later shows that most Ferengi are smart. I always wondered how those guys in Season 1 managed space flight.
If all Ferengi acted like the ones in The Last Outpost it wouldn't be difficult to see why they had trouble making their way out into the galaxy. I'm surprised they managed to put their furry boots on the right feet. But we know from later shows that most Ferengi are smart. I always wondered how those guys in Season 1 managed space flight.
I think generally it's just a case of space being big, and not everyone is as crazy to explore every square inch of it as quickly as possible like those nosey Hew-mons do. The Cardassians and Ferengi were probably conducting their own affairs in their own circles of influence and expanding their empires in different directions until they eventually came across the Federation in their respective due times.
...For all we know, the impenetrable Delphic Expanse separated these folks from Earthlings, until Archer made the Expanse go away in a puff of smoke.
Similarly, Talos IV enjoyed its solitude until somebody went and dissipated the Tyme Barrier!
As regards Gul Madred's rantings, there's no known development on Cardassia being described there, not within his lifetime. When he was a kid, he was starving on the streets. Now he is in the military and no longer starves. Nothing indicates kids wouldn't still be starving in the streets. 200 years prior, Hebitian tombs were looted to help the ailing economy. Nothing indicates the economy still wouldn't be ailing. The glorious past remains in the past; the dreary today is being supported by constant conquest, which may have been ongoing for millennia for all we know.
From "Defiant", we know that the triumvirate of power (Detapa, Central Command, Obsidian Order) has been working well for 500 years. It may have existed for a longer time. Yet its existence would probably depend on the known current setup wherein the Central Command drives the expansion that feeds the economy, so we might well be talking about stability extending back to the Cardassian discovery of starflight, no more than 800 years prior to "Explorers".
Timo Saloniemi
Similarly, Talos IV enjoyed its solitude until somebody went and dissipated the Tyme Barrier!
As regards Gul Madred's rantings, there's no known development on Cardassia being described there, not within his lifetime. When he was a kid, he was starving on the streets. Now he is in the military and no longer starves. Nothing indicates kids wouldn't still be starving in the streets. 200 years prior, Hebitian tombs were looted to help the ailing economy. Nothing indicates the economy still wouldn't be ailing. The glorious past remains in the past; the dreary today is being supported by constant conquest, which may have been ongoing for millennia for all we know.
From "Defiant", we know that the triumvirate of power (Detapa, Central Command, Obsidian Order) has been working well for 500 years. It may have existed for a longer time. Yet its existence would probably depend on the known current setup wherein the Central Command drives the expansion that feeds the economy, so we might well be talking about stability extending back to the Cardassian discovery of starflight, no more than 800 years prior to "Explorers".
Timo Saloniemi
I think the problem with this conversation is that there is enough in canon to actually support several different theories without nailing things down to one, and also, given that this is fiction, other theories could also be made and supported out of whole cloth, too.
I favor the idea of a Cardassia that was once a peaceful and thriving world, but that - either from internal forces or external threat - came to rely on military expansion as the main means of bringing production into their economy to keep things moving. Which is never a good idea.
I favor the idea of a Ferengi government that scouts territories and declares them officially open or off-limits for their people, based on the safety and security of the Ferengi Alliance as a whole - and which, for a long time, saw the Federation as a dangerous area to operate in. (Corrupting influences, combined with a government that would place a high priority on stopping piracy and other of the less savory Ferengi commercial activities.) Ultimately they were forced to open the area anyway because the Federation expanded into their operating territory and interaction was inevitable. And perhaps before that, there were some rogue operations, or instances of the Ferengi government testing the waters - but they were done under other species names or no names at all, with foreign equipment, perhaps even with foreign agents sometimes, leaving them as something of a mystery to the Federation until TNG.
I'm also rather fond of the idea that the ship that Valkris was on at the beginning of ST: III was a Ferengi vessel.
But of course, I can prove almost none of that to anyone else. It suits me. You are welcome to your own notions of what is right here.
I favor the idea of a Cardassia that was once a peaceful and thriving world, but that - either from internal forces or external threat - came to rely on military expansion as the main means of bringing production into their economy to keep things moving. Which is never a good idea.
I favor the idea of a Ferengi government that scouts territories and declares them officially open or off-limits for their people, based on the safety and security of the Ferengi Alliance as a whole - and which, for a long time, saw the Federation as a dangerous area to operate in. (Corrupting influences, combined with a government that would place a high priority on stopping piracy and other of the less savory Ferengi commercial activities.) Ultimately they were forced to open the area anyway because the Federation expanded into their operating territory and interaction was inevitable. And perhaps before that, there were some rogue operations, or instances of the Ferengi government testing the waters - but they were done under other species names or no names at all, with foreign equipment, perhaps even with foreign agents sometimes, leaving them as something of a mystery to the Federation until TNG.
I'm also rather fond of the idea that the ship that Valkris was on at the beginning of ST: III was a Ferengi vessel.
But of course, I can prove almost none of that to anyone else. It suits me. You are welcome to your own notions of what is right here.
Isn't it true that in Acquisition, they were never referred to by name? Was that just an ultimately inconsequential fig leaf that could be at least referenced to in defense of the Ferengi being introduced out of all bounds with continuity, or does it allow some plausibility as it wasn't established in the episode where they came from as well as their lack of an articulated identlty?
Archer's warning at the end may have been taken so seriously, that when communicated to the Alliance, it became a scrupulously followed practice to avoid contact with Starfleet for as long as possible, as USS Triumphant seems to be implying above. Or is that proposition long been debunked as just being far too improbably unrealistic? I admit I really don't recall the specifics about them, to the extent that any were related, when they were first introduced in TNG.
Archer's warning at the end may have been taken so seriously, that when communicated to the Alliance, it became a scrupulously followed practice to avoid contact with Starfleet for as long as possible, as USS Triumphant seems to be implying above. Or is that proposition long been debunked as just being far too improbably unrealistic? I admit I really don't recall the specifics about them, to the extent that any were related, when they were first introduced in TNG.
