It's one black mark on otherwise fantastic films.
I'm ok with it. People in history have been promoted for less.
I'm ok with it. People in history have been promoted for less.
Why Didn't Harry Get Promoted?
- Thread starter Akiraprise
- Start date
Usually due to nepotism. I remember hearing a story about a 15-year-old boy being promoted to captain by his Admiral father back in the Age of Sail.
It's conceivable that that's why Janeway promoted the people she did... an old friend and the son of the admiral she wanted to suck up to.
Importing these from another topic.
HARRY: "...I've been on Voyager for almost seven years and I'm still an Ensign."
JANEWAY: "If this is your way of bucking for a promotion..."
KIM: "No, no, I understand there's a command structure and that our circumstances are unique. But the fact is, if we were back home, I'd be a Lieutenant by now. Maybe even a Lieutenant Commander."
JANEWAY: "You're pretty sure of yourself, aren't you?"
Harry points out the fact that he's been an ensign for seven years. Immediately, Janeway accuses him of "bucking for a promotion". Stating one time in seven frickin' years that you're still an ensign is nothing of the sort.
Once accused, Harry quickly tells her what she wants to hear (a skill any officer should possess), but adds that were they in the Alpha Quadrant, he'd would at least be a lieutenant. He didn't say "I'd be a lieutenant commander, he said "a lieutenant, maybe a lieutenant commander." Janeway's response:
You're pretty sure of yourself, aren't you?"
The implication being that she's of the mind that he's too incompetent to rate any promotion.
That's not the Janeway we know and love. That's Berman/Braga, proxy-delivering a slap across the face to the fans who DARED think that Harry deserved promotion, then or ever.
Here's a bit more of the conversation...
HARRY: "...I've been on Voyager for almost seven years and I'm still an Ensign."
JANEWAY: "If this is your way of bucking for a promotion..."
KIM: "No, no, I understand there's a command structure and that our circumstances are unique. But the fact is, if we were back home, I'd be a Lieutenant by now. Maybe even a Lieutenant Commander."
JANEWAY: "You're pretty sure of yourself, aren't you?"
Harry points out the fact that he's been an ensign for seven years. Immediately, Janeway accuses him of "bucking for a promotion". Stating one time in seven frickin' years that you're still an ensign is nothing of the sort.
Once accused, Harry quickly tells her what she wants to hear (a skill any officer should possess), but adds that were they in the Alpha Quadrant, he'd would at least be a lieutenant. He didn't say "I'd be a lieutenant commander, he said "a lieutenant, maybe a lieutenant commander." Janeway's response:
You're pretty sure of yourself, aren't you?"
The implication being that she's of the mind that he's too incompetent to rate any promotion.
That's not the Janeway we know and love. That's Berman/Braga, proxy-delivering a slap across the face to the fans who DARED think that Harry deserved promotion, then or ever.
In the "Non Sequiteur" timeline, when he was in the SCE, he impressed them enough that he was likely to be a lieutenant (JG) after only 8 months. Figure maybe he slows down a bit, puts in 2-1/2 years as a JG, then 3 as a full LT, that's LCDR in a little over six years. Given that Riker went from ensign to full commander in 5-1/2, it's doable.
<at the annual performance review>
Janeway : .... so, let's see ....over the past few years, you've done your job generally exemplary with only a few hiccups, you died, or very nearly died in the line of duty several times, you designed an entirely new department (astrometrics) together with Seven, you were in a team that designed the Delta Flyer, you came back from a reality in which you were home and quite successful solely because thought you owed us loyalty, you erased a timeline in which our attempted use of the Slipstream went catastrophically wrong, saving us all, you rescued crew members on more occasions than I can even remember right now and you invented numerous new techniques to improve sensor efficiency, and you expect me to promote you? Hahahahaha! That's too funny. Hahahah! Go away! Now! Hahahah! That's an order, or I'll die of laughter! HAHAHA!
<scene ends with Harry walking through the corridor dejectedly while Janeway's laughter is still audible in the background>
(reminds me of an old friend of mine, who earned his Ph. D. in mathematics/information science at age 25 from a prestigious university (most people who get a Ph.D. in my country only get there at age 27 or older), and then went to a job interview, where they told him that he'd better shape up and get serious about achieving some things in his life.
Janeway : .... so, let's see ....over the past few years, you've done your job generally exemplary with only a few hiccups, you died, or very nearly died in the line of duty several times, you designed an entirely new department (astrometrics) together with Seven, you were in a team that designed the Delta Flyer, you came back from a reality in which you were home and quite successful solely because thought you owed us loyalty, you erased a timeline in which our attempted use of the Slipstream went catastrophically wrong, saving us all, you rescued crew members on more occasions than I can even remember right now and you invented numerous new techniques to improve sensor efficiency, and you expect me to promote you? Hahahahaha! That's too funny. Hahahah! Go away! Now! Hahahah! That's an order, or I'll die of laughter! HAHAHA!
<scene ends with Harry walking through the corridor dejectedly while Janeway's laughter is still audible in the background>
(reminds me of an old friend of mine, who earned his Ph. D. in mathematics/information science at age 25 from a prestigious university (most people who get a Ph.D. in my country only get there at age 27 or older), and then went to a job interview, where they told him that he'd better shape up and get serious about achieving some things in his life.
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That's basically Nightingale Janeway, only cranked up to 11.
And sadly, that episode could have easily shown her at her best. Here's my take on how they could have ended it. It even manages to show growth for Harry, without changing his action in the story...
Harry is in Janeway's office for debriefing. Contrary to his eager attitude in the early scene, he presents the appearance of a person who got a few things right but mostly screwed the pooch in a big way, and the wind has seriously gone from his sails.
HARRY: "The other Kraylor ships are installing cloaking systems. So I guess, despite everything, the mission was a success."
JANEWAY: "You don't sound overly thrilled." (Harry says nothing, it's obvious) "It's very normal to look back on your first experience in command with decidedly mixed feelings. Thinking about all the things you got wrong, what you could have done better..."
HARRY: "I expect I'll be doing a lot of that." (a beat) "I really thought I was ready to do this, captain. But... the reality was very different from what I had expected."
JANEWAY: "That never changes. No assignment is exactly what you expect; that goes for command as well."
HARRY: "Well, I did learn one thing... it's that I still have a lot to learn."
JANEWAY: "Yes, you do. And that's why the journey from the classrooms of Starfleet Academy to the captain's chair of a starship is a journey of many steps: exploring, growing, making mistakes, learning lessons from them, and gaining more responsibilities along the way. You may not be ready to take over my job just yet... but you're ready for the next step on that journey..."
She opens her hand and reveals a hollow rank pip in it. She walks over and sticks it to Harry's collar.
JANEWAY: "...Lieutenant Harry Kim."
And subtly, we see Harry's attitude change. It's not a "huge grin" moment, but recognizing that the captain has shown confidence in him despite everything that happened, and maybe he can once again be confident in himself.
HARRY: "Thank you, captain."
The mess hall. The bar rodent is at his post once again.
NEELIX: "Welcome home."
HARRY: "It's good to be back."
NEELIX: "So, what's Voyager's newest Lieutenant going to have tonight? I have a light tula cheese souffle, or a zesty lasagna."
HARRY: "I don't know... what do you recommend?"
NEELIX: "I thought we talked about this. A captain has to be deci..."
HARRY: "That's true... but a good captain also knows when to trust his people."
A moment passes, as Neelix considers his statement, and sees the truth in it.
NEELIX: "Well in that case, I think the lasagna is good today."
HARRY: "Sounds great."
Fin
^That would have been a great ending.
Alas, we didn't get it ....
Alas, we didn't get it ....
Perhaps the operations department was only slated to have ensigns and crewman and the only realistic promotion would be out of position which he couldn't be and he would ultimately only ever be a lieutenant doing an ensign's job until a vacancy somewhere else opened up. Ops was an entry level department for lack of a better time and other than title nothing would change were Harry to have been promoted during Voyager's journey which could be what he means by few opportunities when he's talking to his mother, it's not that he can't become a lieutenant it's that he can't be removed from his position and any promotion would just be redundant.
I'm aware it makes no sense but it's all I can come up with.
I'm aware it makes no sense but it's all I can come up with.
That's OK. You understand that it makes no sense, which means we're not really in conflict.
That being said, several people changed ranks without changing job responsibilities. Including Tuvok and Tom.
I mean Tom's was a restoration I suppose makes it different to Kim's position, though there were other lieutenants walking around on the ship so someone probably should have replaced Tom at the helm during his ensignhood unless Voyager was staffed with only a small number of people that could actually do anything well and was just Starfleet's halfway house for the mediocre. Find the Maquis in the badlands was a mission they were okay sending an Excelsior class on so not the most illustrious mission for one of Starfleet's shiny new toys.
Tuvok getting promoted to equal rank to the ship's XO doesn't quite pass the logic train so well. Ah well it all works out in the end, Harry seems happy enough captaining the Inouye at the minute.
STO, Endgame, and several books provided very satisfying resolutions for Harry, both career-wise and sometimes personally as well. Problem is, the current Trek bosses refuse to make anything canonical (including what we saw in LD). We're stuck with Schrödinger's Kim, only the box has been stubbornly shut since 2001, leaving him in limbo.
I feel the abject frustration too. But as a lifelong Trekkie I'm well conditioned to sitting in a corner rocking back and forth cradling my extensive headcanon to fill in all blanks.
Well, I will soon feel safe in doing that... Given that all 24th and 25th century Treks appear to have reached their end, the most reasonable head canon or Memory Beta stories should logically take precedence.
Of course, Prodigy S3 and Legacy could still happen, and either might establish a canonical fate for Mr. Kim... throw the Schrödinger box open, metaphorically speaking.
Post captain - not the commanding officer of a small ship who is called "captain" by courtesy but holds the rank of Lt. Cdr.?
They also had to buy their commissions until late in the 19th century, I think. The head of their family would provide entry into an honorable profession by paying for the commission. The army did the same.
Midshipmen were supposed to get an exam by flag officers in order to get the vital promotion to lieutenant. A ship that was on detached duty for an extended time tended to have a lot of midshipmen eligibile for lieutenant as soon as they got to a major base with a quorum of flag officers, so they could take the exam.
Or turning it off and re-waching DS9 instead
If there was such a rule it should have been suspended as soon as it became clear that Voyager would be gone so long officers would miss their promotion windows.
Kirk was already a Lieutenant as shown in on-screen text. Similar to how Saavik was a Lieutenant at the Academy in TWOK.
Kor
Again I think it's plausible she thought he was pretty good at his job at least/especially the tech aspects but not so good, not impressive or growing much, in the interpersonal aspects.
I think that's way too fast and even in itself excessive/unbelievable but even if it is accepted that shouldn't be considered anything near typical for most office, for all but best of best (if you accept that Riker is, should be thought of as being that).
He's certainly decent or better, but IMO his fast career had more to do with nepotism from his father and bribery/payoff from RADM Pressman over the Pegasus incident. YMMV.
I am inclined to agree. Jonathan Frakes was 34 when TNG began, so he should have been 12 years in when the show started. They chopped 5 years of his age and career duration for no good reason.
Pressman certainly is a valid explanation for his meteoric rise up the ranks. I've thought the same myself, particularly after his "I made you and I can break you" bit of dialogue in the Ready Room after Riker suggested blowing up the asteroid. Maybe there was some truth in that.
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