And mispronunciations of words, and other assorted cute things. Two has a very different implication for humans, and it's why "dog years" became a thing.
Why Didn't Harry Get Promoted?
- Thread starter Akiraprise
- Start date
The reasons:
1.Because Berman’s rule was that there always had to be an ensign on each show. Wesley on TNG, Nog on DS9, Harry on Voyager and Hoshi on ENT.
2. The writers/producers outside of Ronald Moore (prior military) and Ira Stephen Behr, did not understand how ranks work in reality. It’s why Nog ends DS9 as an Lt. While Harry was 7 years an ensign and Hoshi was 10 years an ensign.
3.Voyager made no room for characters outside of Janeway, Seven and the Doctor from season 4-7.
4. The writers and producers didn’t rewatch TNG season 1, Datalore.
1.Because Berman’s rule was that there always had to be an ensign on each show. Wesley on TNG, Nog on DS9, Harry on Voyager and Hoshi on ENT.
2. The writers/producers outside of Ronald Moore (prior military) and Ira Stephen Behr, did not understand how ranks work in reality. It’s why Nog ends DS9 as an Lt. While Harry was 7 years an ensign and Hoshi was 10 years an ensign.
3.Voyager made no room for characters outside of Janeway, Seven and the Doctor from season 4-7.
4. The writers and producers didn’t rewatch TNG season 1, Datalore.
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Wesley was promoted (acting ensign to full ensign). Nog was promoted. So were Chekov, Ogawa, Ro, Ezri, and Tom Paris. And in Nu Trek, all five Lower Deckers. And while Hoshi wasn't promoted, neither was any other ENT cast member. Even T'Pol was commissioned at equivalent rank. Since Starfleet in that era seemed to be going by the old Royal Navy traditions, with no "half-pip" ranks, it's possible that promotions were less common.
Point is, during the 24th century, there WERE ensigns. And they moved up to bigger and better things. Harry needed to as well.
My ENT head canon is that Riker's holo-program wasn't historically accurate, hence no one looking any older. Hoshi, Travis, and Malcolm had been promoted, while Phlox had returned to his family. Riker just added them in because they were well-known colleagues of Archer.
How hard would it be for Harry to have an extra pip on his shoulder in "Night"? Maybe just a random remark: "last time we saw the captain was at the party for Harry's promotion, and she left early." Five seconds of dislogue, max. Nothing more would be required.
Or thought we hadn't, or were too dumb to remember.
Should Nog count? He doesn't join Starfleet until season four and doesn't become an ensign until season six. Plus he's not a regular
If Nog isn't counted, that means that the latter half of TNG and pretty much all of DS9 had no ensigns in the main cast.
Whether you include or exclude recurring characters, Braga's idiotic assertion that "someone gotta be duh ensign" has been smashed to granules. Just like every other argument made in favor of Harry's 7-year ensignhood.
Whether you include or exclude recurring characters, Braga's idiotic assertion that "someone gotta be duh ensign" has been smashed to granules. Just like every other argument made in favor of Harry's 7-year ensignhood.
Nog was prevalent during the Dominion arc when it moved into high gear. I always thought of him as a regular cast member. Maybe not to the point of Qwark but certainly essential.
Plus, Nog is the only recurring main cast member whose time as ensign was done right.
In the US military for example. The rank of ensign in the navy and coast guard is equal to the rank of second lieutenant in the army, AF and marines. It is the rank college ROTC members who join, civilians with college degrees who apply, and cadets who graduate Westpoint receive.
It is the first rank on the officer path, but also transitory. You only stay at the lowest rank until you master your first job or a vacancy opens up for a new one. That can between 3 months to 2 years. Because there will be more Westpoint grads, ROTC members, civilian college applicants and internal non-commissioned service members being appointed to the lowest rank throughout the year. Factor in people resigning and retiring their positions. You see why no stays at the lowest rank more than 2 years on the officer path. You’ll create a bottleneck and have too many people working unspecialized occupations.
Nog being 2 years an ensign was the correct thing to do. Harry (7 years an ensign) and Hoshi (10 years an ensign) were done dirty. No one spends that amount of time at that rank. Not even as a punishment.
Given all of Harry’s duties and responsibilities on Voyager. He doesn’t need to be an ensign to do that job. Plus, with Harry being considered a senior staff member. He definitely didn’t need to be an ensign.
Nog's promotion was the correct option, particularly if he took over as ChEng for the expanded engineering department of Deep Space Nine and the Defiant.
Harry being an ENS initially makes sense as he was more equivalent of Uhura (the ranking bridge officer in Operations and Communications, but subordinate to a higher ranking officer within the same otherall division (Tuvok versus Scotty) and on a much smaller crew. Also, a promotion to LT-JG wouldn't actually make any difference as he already had his own quarters from the outset, which is the only tangible advantage that we know of.
Hoshi is a more complex case as honestly she was done far more "dirty" with her being an ENS in the first place, but IMO if you accept that and that she had no change in position (bear in mind, unlike Kim JG doesn't appear to be available), then her not being promoted makes sense.
Harry being an ENS initially makes sense as he was more equivalent of Uhura (the ranking bridge officer in Operations and Communications, but subordinate to a higher ranking officer within the same otherall division (Tuvok versus Scotty) and on a much smaller crew. Also, a promotion to LT-JG wouldn't actually make any difference as he already had his own quarters from the outset, which is the only tangible advantage that we know of.
Hoshi is a more complex case as honestly she was done far more "dirty" with her being an ENS in the first place, but IMO if you accept that and that she had no change in position (bear in mind, unlike Kim JG doesn't appear to be available), then her not being promoted makes sense.
Especially when you consider that Voyager had an operations lieutenant on board (Durst). Harry should have been subordinate to him, just as academy dropout B'Elanna should have been subordinate to Carey. Ironically, these actions would have done far more for Harry and B'Elanna than Carey and Durst... Harry would still have been elevated to chief of operations upon Durst's death, but he could have been played as a Starfleet kid who wasn't ready to command a division (but no one else was qualified). B'Elanna wouldn't have effectively gone from "violent hothead" to "valued team member" in one episode, squandering her potential growth as a character.
If rank is not an issue, then why was it a punishment for Tom Paris to be reduced to ensign, and an honor for him to be put back? Also, why did he get a lieutenant's pip in "Unimatrix Zero" for a year and a half of exemplary service, when Harry was stuck at ensign after six?
Hoshi (and Travis, who was in the same boat and was probably the most competent member of that crew, probably due to a lifetime spent in space) can be explained if you figure two things: first, the Starfleet Officers corps had four non-flag ranks: ensign, lieutenant, commander, and captain. The "half-pip" ranks of LTJG and LCDR don't exist. Second, the show only covers four years: Riker's holographic version wasn't accurate. Could a modern recreation of a Naval action that happened in 1815 have every detail correct?
It's still a stretch, though. Especially for Travis, who as far as we know never made a mistake. It's easy to see why the "Dead Stop" station wanted his brain for its collection... it was the best one on the ship.
Durst appears to have been a Security/Tactical officer within Operations not Kim's Operations/Communications sub-department, so wouldn't have been Kim's direct superior in any case. He was likely replaced by either Rollins (who was also Tuvok's deputy for Navigation) or LT Baxter.
The issue of B'Elanna versus Carey, that was blotched, I agree.
Well, Paris' demotion to ENS likely also stripped him of his position of de facto fourth-in-command, so the return of the second pip was mostly restoring that. As with Kim's "lieutenant's privileges", I don't recall him losing his during the period of proving he'd "learned his lesson".
Honestly, Travis' progression could have been handled a lot better if they had made him the ship's "coxswain" in the first place with Crewman/Specialist rank, then showing him as a Chief Specialist in the finale.
Even with the restricted rank table, Hoshi should have inducted as a LT given her civilian credentials and previous Starfleet history (it's unclear whether it's more akin to B'Elanna's or Tom's but either way...).
The issue of B'Elanna versus Carey, that was blotched, I agree.
Well, Paris' demotion to ENS likely also stripped him of his position of de facto fourth-in-command, so the return of the second pip was mostly restoring that. As with Kim's "lieutenant's privileges", I don't recall him losing his during the period of proving he'd "learned his lesson".
Honestly, Travis' progression could have been handled a lot better if they had made him the ship's "coxswain" in the first place with Crewman/Specialist rank, then showing him as a Chief Specialist in the finale.
Even with the restricted rank table, Hoshi should have inducted as a LT given her civilian credentials and previous Starfleet history (it's unclear whether it's more akin to B'Elanna's or Tom's but either way...).
Memory Alpha lists him as Operations, though admittedly the uniforms are the same. Sometimes the duties are similar; I've seen Harry firing weapons from time to time.
He's Operations based on uniform, but not primary assignment (Security/Tactical rather than Communications).
IIRC, the only time that Harry fired the weapons was during the episode where Tuvok was in command, where they'd blown a lot of the budget on location filming so had Kim pulled "double duty" to save money on a day player for Tactical.
IIRC, the only time that Harry fired the weapons was during the episode where Tuvok was in command, where they'd blown a lot of the budget on location filming so had Kim pulled "double duty" to save money on a day player for Tactical.
Lower Decks is over, which (barring an increasingly unlikely Prodigy third season or Legacy series) locks down the TNG era timeline. And
LD spoilers in interview: https://trekmovie.com/2024/12/17/in...-decks-and-anger-being-written-out-of-picard/
according to Garrett Wang's latest interview, Prime Universe Harry Kim did not appear in it at any point in time. So, we've still got the whole Schrödinger Harry thing going on.
LD spoilers in interview: https://trekmovie.com/2024/12/17/in...-decks-and-anger-being-written-out-of-picard/
I think he should have been promoted, at least had claim to, but it not happening is not entirely without reason, that he didn't get promoted in Seasons 3-5 can be just because he was competent but Janeway wasn't impressed by his interpersonal abilities, then she was disappointed and bore grudge after "The Disease" and probably would have promoted him in another year or two but not within 2 years right after it. The outright unfairness is her re-promoting Tom just year and a half after "30 Days" but not promoting Harry also around then.
Harry does seem more awkward, and more the butt of jokes, in 5-7 with Braga being in charge than before.
I think saying definitely Lieutenant, maybe even Lieutenant Commander after 7 years, and how he said it, did feel overly presumptuous.
The Disease is a horrible episode that really damaged Janeway for me. MAkes me fel like some Terra Prime influence remianed in Starfleet even after 200 years...
Janeway was really unfair for Harry there. And not like anyone else didn;lt do such htings before.
Janeway was really unfair for Harry there. And not like anyone else didn;lt do such htings before.
I don't think Dax should have been promoted soon after "Blood Oath" and "Meridian", that promotion felt unearned, felt just so that she would not be outranked by newcomer Worf (and/but she would outrank Bashir), and don't think most people really take Nog becoming Ensign after two years as cadet seriously.
Felt like stating facts to me. Harry undoubtedly had access to his own personnel reports, and knew that nobody stays an ensign for 7 years unless they're incompetent.
"The Disease" is irrelevant. Harry should have had his lieutenant pip a year before it happened. And if Janeway would promote Tom a year and a half after actions (which, need I remind you, she was willing to KILL HIM to stop) that got him brigged, she should have been fine with promoting Harry after the same amount of time. Especially since his actions weren't technically his fault: he was known to be under alien influence.
Honestly, Harry could have gone to the Doctor after Voyager got home, and gotten him to explain the circumstances of his actions to Starfleet Command. That reprimand would have disappeared faster than a pizza at a teenager's birthday party.
Riker would have been reduced to ensign. Especially given that one of his "romances" almost got the Enterprise taken over. And Kirk would probably have been busted to cadet.
Nog was basically a wartime promotion. Ironically, since Voyager had lost an Operations lieutenant (Durst), Harry could have received the same. There were actually ten (that I saw) very viable opportunities for Harry to be promoted. Many were way later than he deserved, but at least they would have prevented an additional 24 years of "poor dumb forever ensign Kim".
Yes, Worf should have outranked Jadzia. Jadzia was just out of the Academy during DS9 season 1, when Worf was about four years into his service on the Enterprise.
I never really understand that. Why canlt Worf outrank Jadzia? Is it because they wanted to set up Jadzia/Worf romance right away and felt that diffrence in ranks would make that harder?
Jadzia was 28, to Bashir's 27. He was a JG, she was a full LT. But I think Joined Trill often get a rank boost, as was seen with Ezri, due to their centuries of life experience.
In any case, Jadzia and Bashir both got one promotion each over their 7 years on DS9, which was about right. Worf, freshly promoted in "Generations", was not due for another.
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