Why did they get rid of the rank of "Commodore"?

[Vance]

Fleet captain is admittedly an oddity.

Not really. "Fleet Captain" may not actually be a rank, but a position. Pike could have easily been Commodore in rank, but called that due to his job - just as admirals, lieutenants and commanders may be called 'captain' when their position is captaining a ship.

 

[ElScoob]

Fleet captain is admittedly an oddity.

Not really. "Fleet Captain" may not actually be a rank, but a position. Pike could have easily been Commodore in rank, but called that due to his job - just as admirals, lieutenants and commanders may be called 'captain' when their position is captaining a ship.

That's a really good point. In the Royal Navy, back in the Napoleonic era, officers in the position of 'Captain of the Fleet' (basically the chief of staff to an admiral in command of a fleet) sometimes held flag rank (junior to the admiral in command, of course), if my memory serves.

(I speak under correction, of course, and in full confidence that our own J.T.B. will know better if I am in error. )

 

[Timo]

Or, since a big deal was made about Kirk and Pike having parallel careers, Pike could have been Captain by the time he was called Fleet Captain.

I mean, this is how it goes:

Mendez: "You ever met Chris Pike?"
Kirk: "When he was promoted to fleet captain."
Mendez: "About your age. Big, handsome man-- vital, active."

Seems that Pike was "promoted to fleet captain" back when he was about the age Kirk is now, during this dialogue. (Any other interpretation of the chronology would make little sense - clearly, the two weren't born in the same year or anything.) So either Pike was a wunderkind who was one step ahead of Kirk in everything, or then Pike's rank "then" and Kirk's rank "now" would be the same.

Also, consider this: Pike was "promoted" to this mysterious fleet captaindom, suggesting that Fleet Captain is indeed the name for a rank (one isn't "promoted" to a position but is "assigned" or "appointed" or "billeted" or whatever). Yet captain is also a position, as you say - so Starfleet might wish to make a formal distinction between those two meanings, and thus officially considers the rank between Commander and Commodore "Fleet Captain" for extra clarity, rather than just plain "Captain".

It would be very seldom that one would hear the full, official name for the rank, of course. In speech, it would only be used when there was danger of confusion, or when being carefully formal in company with one's superiors (as Kirk might be with Mendez). Too bad it wasn't used in the formal context of "Court Martial"...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[137th Gebirg]

Oh God...Another Fleet Captain/Commodore thread. My brain hurts...

 

[J.T.B.]

Fleet captain is admittedly an oddity.

Not really. "Fleet Captain" may not actually be a rank, but a position. Pike could have easily been Commodore in rank, but called that due to his job - just as admirals, lieutenants and commanders may be called 'captain' when their position is captaining a ship.

True, but there's nothing in the episodes that particularly supports that, which is one of the reasons I called it an oddity.

That's a really good point. In the Royal Navy, back in the Napoleonic era, officers in the position of 'Captain of the Fleet' (basically the chief of staff to an admiral in command of a fleet) sometimes held flag rank (junior to the admiral in command, of course), if my memory serves.

(I speak under correction, of course, and in full confidence that our own J.T.B. will know better if I am in error. )

Looks good to me! BTW, "captain of the fleet" was still a RN position in WW1, for instance Adm. Jellicoe as CinC Grand Fleet had both a chief of staff (a rear admiral) and a captain of the fleet (a commodore 1st class). The CoS handled operational matters, the CotF dealt with materiel and fleet maintenance. There were still captains of the fleet — also know by the functional title "fleet maintenance officer" — into the 1950s.

The only objection I see to fleet captain being a position is, as Timo has pointed out, the words "promoted to." That certainly implies that FC was another step on the rank ladder, rather than an assignment.

It would be very seldom that one would hear the full, official name for the rank, of course. In speech, it would only be used when there was danger of confusion, or when being carefully formal in company with one's superiors (as Kirk might be with Mendez). Too bad it wasn't used in the formal context of "Court Martial"...

Indeed, the recitation of part of the service record in that episode pretty firmly establishes that Kirk's title is simply "captain." The "promoted to" language and the more conversational way Kirk first uses "fleet captain" with Mendez leads me to believe that the most likely explanation is that FC is a substantive rank, and that was the authorial intent. But why? Perhaps it was to hint to the audience that Pike was senior to Kirk, but not "past his prime," to give his appearance in the chair a little more shock value.

But an example along the same lines as Timo's speculation: the full title of a US five-star admiral, in the original legislation, is "Fleet Admiral of the United States Navy." This is almost never seen, anywhere. Even the official Navy Registers just listed them as "Fleet Admiral."

--Justin

 

[ToddPence]

I think Lionel Richie threatened to sue.

 

[Wingsley]

I hate to throw a monkey wrench in to all of this, but Kirk and Pike could not possibly be even near the same age.

Pike commanded the Enterprise 13 years before "The Menagerie, Part 1", which was in the first year of TOS.

 

[Timo]

Indeed. Which is why it seems obvious that Mendez was saying that Pike during his promotion was the same age that Kirk is during the discussion - ergo, that the difference between the birthdates of the two is the same as the difference between the dates of the promotion and the episode. This must have been the writer intention, too, as I cannot fathom why he would attempt to pretend that Pike and Kirk were born in the same year.

That's what the context of the dialogue suggests, too. Mendez' "about your age" comment refers clearly to Pike's past, not Pike's present, as it is accompanied by such praise about Pike being a manly and healthy example of virile hunkiness that the camera has to pan away from the Commodore's pants. That's how Pike was, not how he is.

Basically, we're left to think that Kirk is now how Pike was then, agewise, healthwise, positionwise - and perhaps rankwise as well.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ronald Held]

That was my interpretation, as well.

 

[Electric Coleslaw]

Oh God...Another Fleet Captain/Commodore thread. My brain hurts...

There are always newbies here who may not have discussed this before.

I always liked the Commodore rank myself. It always seemed even in TOS to be an honorary title given to a Captain or Fleet Captain who has distinguished himself. Most Commodore's were older than Kirk.

Commodore Stocker seems to be the exception but he seemed to have no real authority over Kirk while he was in command.

But the rank of Captain seemed also only to apply to the commander of the vessel. Technically wasn't Kirk in TMP still an Admiral even though he assumed the rank of Captain while commanding the Enterprise?

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

Technically wasn't Kirk in TMP still an Admiral even though he assumed the rank of Captain while commanding the Enterprise?

Well, he wore Admiral braids when he first appears in the movie, but once he takes command he changed into a uniform with captains braids on it, which really doesn't make much sense (nor does Decker having to take a "temporary grade reduction" to commander). An Admiral would be fully capable of commanding a ship, especially if it were meant to be only for one mission, and there would be nothing wrong with his XO being a Captain. Especially since we saw Commodores in TOS in command of ships who still wore commodore's braids.

The only rationalization I can think of is that the grade reduction to Captain was part of whatever deal Kirk made with Nogura to get command of the Enterprise back.

 

[SiddFinch1]

Maybe they thought people would confuse it with the computer brand.

Should have made Kirk a Commodore- After all Shatner was their pitchman for a few years

 

[Mr. Fergy]

I think TPTB wanted Starfleet to feel less "Militaristic" in the future.

BTW there is a "Commodore" rank in my star trek group which is a chapter of STARFLEET (www.sfi.org) and I currently hold the "Commodore " or 1 pip Admiral rank in.

 

[ElScoob]

I think TPTB wanted Starfleet to feel less "Militaristic" in the future.

BTW there is a "Commodore" rank in my star trek group which is a chapter of STARFLEET (www.sfi.org) and I currently hold the "Commodore " or 1 pip Admiral rank in.

I spent a long time in SFI in my misspent youth, and always swore that if I made Commodore I would adopt the title of Rear Admiral (Lower Half). I ended up retiring as a Fleet Captain, though, so the point was moot.

 

[Mallory]

Commodore is still a rank here on the board. I wonder what series the original ranks were drawn from.

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

I think TPTB wanted Starfleet to feel less "Militaristic" in the future.

And 'Commodore' is more militaristic than 'Rear-Admiral'?

 

[Timo]

At least it's a bit less embarrassing.

The only rationalization I can think of is that the grade reduction to Captain was part of whatever deal Kirk made with Nogura to get command of the Enterprise back.

Seconded. Although perhaps this is not a price Kirk had to pay - but rather another concession Nogura had to make? Kirk might have hated his new high rank and its associated responsibilities enough to yearn for an honorary means of demotion.

He'd then either wisen up, or be forced to back off, and would have his Rear Admiral status reinstated for ST2-4.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ronald Held]

I haven't made it to Commodore.

 

[C.E. Evans]

In other threads about this subject, I've always maintained that commodores were merely senior captains and could command either a starship or a starbase, but would generally be regarded as the senior officer present in a taskforce.

The real world reasons why the rank was dropped in the U.S. Navy aside, Starfleet may have discontinued it/renamed it as a "one-pip admiral" just to streamline the chain of command or make it more cohesive. Vice Admirals may assume many of the overall taskforce/fleet command duties once held by commodores with actual field commands now distributed among the captains...

 

[Mr. Fergy]

I think TPTB wanted Starfleet to feel less "Militaristic" in the future.

And 'Commodore' is more militaristic than 'Rear-Admiral'?

I didn't say I agree with TBTB, the rank should still exist in the 24th century, IMHO.