Why Did Roddenberry Hate the "dreadnought" from the Starfleet Technical Manual?

Discussion in 'Trek Tech' started by Samuel, Dec 31, 2017.

  1. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    As far as the ship designs go, let's remember that FJ's Tech Manual was supposed to be somewhat "interactive". That's why the uniform patterns were in there, so fans who are into that (like his daughter) could make their own uniforms, and the communicator circuitry was a real walkie-talkie schematic for those into electronics, and so, likewise the ships were mostly easy kit bashes of the AMT model for the same reason.
     
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  2. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Ohh, that's a very interesting insight. That makes sense.
     
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  3. Dr. San Guinary

    Dr. San Guinary Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Gene couldn't have hated the dreadnought THAT much, as he allowed one (the USS Entente) to be mentioned onscreen in TMP.

    And not only was the Entente specifically referred to AS a dreadnought, it even had the same registry number that FJ gave it.
     
  4. Dukhat

    Dukhat Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The scouts Columbia and Revere, and their registry numbers, were also mentioned.
     
  5. Dr. San Guinary

    Dr. San Guinary Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Also the layouts & technical data for the dreadnought were actually displayed on screen earlier in the movie, lifted straight from the tech manual.
     
  6. F. King Daniel

    F. King Daniel Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I doubt gene had the ship named and classifications memorized enough to tell they were Technical Manual references.
     
  7. Ricky Spanish

    Ricky Spanish History’s Greatest Monster Premium Member

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    I'm sure he had sycophants who did.
     
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  8. Redshirt214

    Redshirt214 Ensign Newbie

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    I’d just like to note that, at least according to Probert in the interview with Trekyards, that the specific ship Gene objected to was actually the Single engine Destroyer/Scout, an example of which Probert had roughly sketched in another dry dock, near where the Enterprise was being refit. When Gene viewed the sketch (no doubt in a foul mood with FJ for reasons other have expounded upon, which if anyone is framilliar with his shenanigans with the theme song lyrics isn’t really a surprise), he told Probert that “warp drive needs two engines”, which the later took to heart. Also Probert said the 50% line of sight rule was intended to be strictly line of sight.

    I think this pair rule was also a pretty common thought before hand though, both on Jeffries part and later on the part of Robert Kline. The later has stated, again to Trekyards and with many years distance so a grain of salt prehaps, that it was also his impression that two engines were needed for warp drive, and he had no real direction other than TOS for designing ships. Supposedly he was also aware of the line of sight rule. His work actually predates the Tech manual... which leads me to believe that really although Gene made it a hard rule at least for hero ships, it probably was the generally accepted fan /production crew view pre-FJ, so while he may have acted out of malice it wasn’t an entirely arbitrary decree so much as making one school of speculation cannon over another. And AFAIK Jefferies gave all his warp ships that made the screen two engines (and a top mounted bridge, and a sensor/deflector), and even the supposed impulse driven Romulan BOP has two engines.

    As for the rules, in my opinion they actually should be stated as “Roddenberry’s rules; and the Probert Corrolary”, as from what Probert has said the line of sight rules from the front and side views of the ship seem more his doing than Gene’s (though I’m sure he gave the corrolary his de facto blessings by approving designs that adheared to it). To me it seem the rules should be:
    Gene’s Rules:
    1. Paired Engines!
    2. Bridge at the Top of the Saucer!

    Probert’s Corrolary:
    3. Engines must retain line of sight, P-S & F-A.

    Although honestly I don’t know whether it makes sense that the whole having the engines visible from the front was a rule that originated in the TMP era or the TNG era, but I can’t think of a ship from the movies that violates it... maybe the Excelsior? I think that one was more something Probert chose for visual congruity since having los in one view of the ship but not another would look funky.
     
  9. Mysterion

    Mysterion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    This rule makes sense if you accept that the front ends of the warp nacelles are Bussard collectors to gather additional materials for fuel as the ship moves through space. In this case an unobstructed forward view from the nacelles would be needed to maximize efficiency of this system.
     
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  10. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It also makes sense if the Bussards exist for vacuuming the flightpath clear of obstacles, rather than for replenishing resources. Or if the Bussards are the front ends of things analogous to jet engines, with input and output ends. Or from the simple dramatic viewpoint of having a colorful blinkie in the first place - one shouldn't obstruct colorful blinkies, period.

    In short, it's a good rule that makes intuitive sense. Much like the bridge-on-very-top (or at least clearly visible) one.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
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  11. Spock Riding

    Spock Riding Commodore Premium Member

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    The main deflector dish pushes stuff out of the way from under the saucer like a bow wake; some of the stuff is directed up in front of the ship. The bussards send out huge magnetic fields directed from above the saucer to collect dissociated gases, some of which were direct up by the deflector. They are designed to work in unison with each other; their orientation allows the saucer to act as a separation barrier to keep the two systems from cancelling out each other effects. If the bussards are inline to the main deflector dish and/or on the same side of the saucer, then the bussard system is not as efficient.
     
  12. KamenRiderBlade

    KamenRiderBlade Captain Captain

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    You mean the Navigational Deflector Dish.
    Normally, the Main Deflector is thought of as the "Shields" equivalent.
     
  13. Spock Riding

    Spock Riding Commodore Premium Member

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    Sure.
     
  14. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    No, the term for shields is "deflectors," plural, aka deflector shields or deflector screens. There was a reference to "the main deflector grid" in TNG: "Schisms," but otherwise the phrase "main deflector" has always been used to refer to the forward dish, with "navigational" left implicit. (The Star Trek Script Search page seems to be down at the moment, but here's a Google search for the phrase on Chakoteya's transcript site.)
     
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  15. Spock Riding

    Spock Riding Commodore Premium Member

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    Tomato-Tomato.

    Option 1: The bussard collector cannot magnetically attract interstellar gases on the other side of the warp bubble, so, it probably works at sublight best inside solar systems or parked on the edge of a gas giant. They cannot travel at warp indefinitely. They have to occasionally drop out of warp to top off the matter tanks.
    Option 2: At warp, interstellar gas is rushing around the leading edge of the warp bubble at faster than light speed. The magnetic field only moves at the speed of light. The field cannot penetrate outside of the bubble, but it is able to skim gases directly in contact with the warp bubble. Due to the ship's immense speed at warp, a large volume of gases are collected and can sustain warp speed indefinitely.

    I'm a fan of Option 2.
     
  16. ALF

    ALF Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yeah, I read something years and years ago about Gene had it set in his mind that "warp drive needs two engines," just something the creator of a universe would know about. But it's an easy in-universe fix, if you subscribe to Gene's Science: couldn't two engines be dedicated to the warp field, and the third generating dedicated power for other uses?

    That wouldn't explain the Saladin though. I would just assume one nacelle would generate less power, suitable enough for a smaller ship.
     
  17. KamenRiderBlade

    KamenRiderBlade Captain Captain

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    Fair enough. I always qualify what type of Deflector that I'm using so as to avoid confusion.
    With VOY StarShip design having the Navigational Deflector separated from the Shield Deflector and that as a ongoing design trend moving forward, I would hope that splitting up the term makes sense.
     
  18. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Again, it's not "the shield deflector," it's the deflector shields or deflector screens, deflectors for short. If it's singular, it's referring to the dish, because it's a single item emitting a beam in one direction. If it's plural, it's referring to the shields, because it's an array of energy fields surrounding the whole ship, or a grid of emitters generating a collective field around the whole ship. (TOS tended to treat the screens/shields as several separate fields in different parts of the ship -- e.g. the forward shield, the aft shield, etc. -- whereas later productions treat them as a single bubble.)
     
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  19. KamenRiderBlade

    KamenRiderBlade Captain Captain

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    Fair enough, but I'm using it colloquially. You're an official writer, so you have to be more precise with your terms. I can understand the need for accuracy.

    But the Bubble Shield / Skin Shield is a separate issue that we can go into another time.
     
  20. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    You don't have to be a professional writer to distinguish a singular from a plural.
     
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