Why did people complain about Khan's white-washing in STID...

[martok2112]

A fair portion of the audience who were also DS9 fans would have been wondering WTF Bashir was doing in the movie.

I would hope they would realize he was in a different role. After all Star Trek fans are supposed to be smart and Trek has a long history of using actors in multiple roles.

Jeff Combs

Michael Dorn (a more blatant one)

Diane Mulder (TOS and TNG)

I think we can safely say that Trek makes use of actors wherever it can

Let's not forget James Cromwell, who has appeared in episodes of TNG and DS9, as well as playing Zephram Cochrane in First Contact.

 

[Shaka Zulu]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvYSPxvrq5s

That's a link to a rant from a founding member of the hate movement #GamerGate, by the way.

If I sound suspicious about people's opinions on "bloggers," it's because I'm aware that there are people like "InternetAristocrat" out there and that they have really no credibility to speak about "ideology" or so-called "Social Justice Warriors."

If you have never heard of that term, watch this video for more information into their ideology:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvYSPxvrq5s

Watching that video will actually lower someone's IQ.

Here's the thing-I support GamerGate (and am as liberal/left-leaning as they come) but I think that this guy's full of it, and then some. I can give a good left-leaning reason for opposing what the SJW's want.

The SJW's aren't helping video games, they're destroying them (and will destroy them and the industry) by acting as backseat creators who will stifle anything creative they think doesn't support what's pissing them off about the world. Most of what they want will end up being shovelware (real or virtual) and as I mentioned above, may end up bankrupting the industry.

If they really want to see inclusion, they have to start telling their brethren (and others of color/women) to get into the industry and start making games, not by backseat creating. The example of the game hNever Alone is what most of then should be following.

As for Gamergate/#NotYourShield itself, the movement put out a video that was denounced as window dressing, even though most of the people were sincere about what they felt.

 

[BigJake]

^ On the GamerGate stuff, I'll spoiler-tag for those who are understandably sick of reading this stuff:

Spoiler: GamerGate

Being "left-leaning" or "liberal" doesn't proof anyone against misogyny or pettiness, and I don't see any good "left-leaning" reason to believe the "SJW" even exists as an actual category that could be applied to any of GamerGate's targets*. The harassment of whom hasn't stopped to this day, by the way, because it started out as the point from the beginning and has remained the point to the bitter end. The chatlogs showing 4chan's planning of #NotYourShield as a distraction have been public for a long time; anyone who participated in that, or any other aspect of GamerGate, under the impression of supporting something "sincere" was duped. Those are just statements of facts in the public record.

This is particularly ballsy of you, I think:

If they really want to see inclusion, they have to start telling their brethren (and others of color/women) to get into the industry and start making games,

... because you have to know that Brianna Wu and Zoe Quinn were and are targeted by screeching mobs of hateful fanboys for doing precisely this. All the robotic repetition of "it's about ethics in game journalism" was only ever a smokescreen. The targets of GamerGate were small indie creators who started getting attention for their games and happened to have vaginas, or commentators and critics who had the audacity to be young and female and exhibit any kind of propensity for non-right-wing critique.

(* If Anita Sarkeesian supposedly qualifies as an "SJW" for calling out sexism in games in ways poor thunderf00t can't cope with, or Zoe Quinn supposedly qualifies for calling out the Fine Young Capitalists for transphobia, then it fails as an analytic category and it's time to go back to learning some basics about how criticism and debate work.)

And that's all I've got to say about that. Basically, on the whole, I tend to think anyone who feels the need to tar swathes of people with epithets like "SJW" or "Cultural Marxist" or their equivalents is announcing that they don't understand their targets.

 

[marlboro]

The second post in threads like this should be the "That's RACIST!" gif so we can all save ourselves a lot of time.

 

[Shaka Zulu]

^ On the GamerGate stuff, I'll spoiler-tag for those who are understandably sick of reading this stuff:

Spoiler: GamerGate

Being "left-leaning" or "liberal" doesn't proof anyone against misogyny or pettiness, and I don't see any good "left-leaning" reason to believe the "SJW" even exists as an actual category that could be applied to any of GamerGate's targets*. The harassment of whom hasn't stopped to this day, by the way, because it started out as the point from the beginning and has remained the point to the bitter end. The chatlogs showing 4chan's planning of #NotYourShield as a distraction have been public for a long time; anyone who participated in that, or any other aspect of GamerGate, under the impression of supporting something "sincere" was duped. Those are just statements of facts in the public record.

This is particularly ballsy of you, I think:

If they really want to see inclusion, they have to start telling their brethren (and others of color/women) to get into the industry and start making games,

... because you have to know that Brianna Wu and Zoe Quinn were and are targeted by screeching mobs of hateful fanboys for doing precisely this. All the robotic repetition of "it's about ethics in game journalism" was only ever a smokescreen. The targets of GamerGate were small indie creators who started getting attention for their games and happened to have vaginas, or commentators and critics who had the audacity to be young and female and exhibit any kind of propensity for non-right-wing critique.

(* If Anita Sarkeesian supposedly qualifies as an "SJW" for calling out sexism in games in ways poor thunderf00t can't cope with, or Zoe Quinn supposedly qualifies for calling out the Fine Young Capitalists for transphobia, then it fails as an analytic category and it's time to go back to learning some basics about how criticism and debate work.)

And that's all I've got to say about that. Basically, on the whole, I tend to think anyone who feels the need to tar swathes of people with epithets like "SJW" or "Cultural Marxist" or their equivalents is announcing that they don't understand their targets.

I think they they understand then well enough, and wish that said people would either make their games, put them out into the market, and see what happens rather than say that they are a 'force for good' or some other bullshit that they love to spew. There are people who make independent games already that aren't doing half of the shit that Sarkesian & Co. are doing, and they get along fine.

As for sexism; if saving somebody in a game is such a problem, then why are the people playing these games? If I don't like a game, I don't play it-a very simple thing to do. Also, crying about women having big boobs in a video game is a waste of resources that the offended people in question could dedicate to creating games without said big boobed women (or anything else that they feel offends them) in a video game. What happened to the ethos of DIY and why can't said activists carry it out?

Amazing how in a nation that has a ton of real problems/issues, the most liberal president ever elected in 40 years to solve them, retrograde politicians stymieing him at every turn when he does try to solve them, we have a bunch of 'activists' only concerned are about what kind of persons are in videogames or if there's representation of them in videogames, instead of trying to support said president when he's carrying out said policies. Just absolutely fracking amazing.

Weird Al had the right of it:

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwvlbJ0h35A[/yt]

 

[EnriqueH]

I keep hearing that Montalban had a Mexican accent.

I'm not sure I agree that he sounds Mexican. He doesn't sound like any Mexican actors or celebrities I know.

He kinda had his own thing going. He did sound like he had Latino background, but I don't think he necessarily sounded Mexican (even though he was).

Anyway, I loved Cumberbatch's Khan.

For argument's sake: Didn't the British hang around India for a while? I don't see why Khan couldn't have some British lineage. But then I'm admittedly not an expert on the whole British involvement in India.

 

[BeatleJWOL]

Cumberbatch... is a more nuanced and skillful actor.

Well uh by comparison Montalban was playing the role in a far more bombastic, theatre-oriented fashion closer to the TV show. Cumberbatch is a more modern actor bringing the more modern "realistic" sensibilities to his performance. So Dennis isn't exactly wrong, even if he has shown tendencies to go all kill-it-n-grill-it with some sacred Trek cows around here

 

[Timewalker]

Cumberbatch... is a more nuanced and skillful actor.

Well uh by comparison Montalban was playing the role in a far more bombastic, theatre-oriented fashion closer to the TV show. Cumberbatch is a more modern actor bringing the more modern "realistic" sensibilities to his performance. So Dennis isn't exactly wrong, even if he has shown tendencies to go all kill-it-n-grill-it with some sacred Trek cows around here

First of all, I appreciate theatrical-style performances, as I used to work in musical theatre.

Second... Dennis has his opinion of Benedict Cumberbatch and I have mine. It doesn't matter what role he plays - Cumberbatch doesn't do a thing for me. I don't consider him either nuanced or skillful.

 

[EnriqueH]

I like both actors to be honest.

Montalban is more theatrical, a big personality. Colorful, elegant. Larger than life. It's a shame he never played a Bond villain.

Cumberbatch has that big personality too in a more reserved, compact way. He's also flirting with larger than life.

The only significant difference I see is that Montalban seemed typecast in Latin-Lover or villainous roles. (That his career flourished in the face of typecast and stereotypes and that he seemed to remain busy all his life is a testament to his charisma and talent.) And Cumberbatch has had a larger, diverse choice of roles.

 

[BigJake]

There are people who make independent games already that aren't doing half of the shit that Sarkesian & Co. are doing, and they get along fine.

So, live and let live as long as they don't talk or think about their worldview or aspirations in public at all ever. Sounds legit.

The hilarious bit is that a lot of these GGers are the same people who wigged out when Roger Ebert said games can't be art. "Games are totally art, Roger Ebert, you ignorant fool!" Then someone like Sarkeesian comes along and actually critiques them that way -- in incredibly tame and basic terms as gender studies goes, BTW -- and suddenly the script flips and it's "SHUT YOUR WHORE MOUTH!!!!!111!!!11"

[snip the segue into the most laughable misappropriation of poor Weird Al in internet history]

ZOMG! The "First World problems" gambit coming from a guy supporting a 'consumer revolt' about how 'SJWs' are 'destroying videogames'. Truly, you can't buy irony like that.

 

[JWPlatt]

...has shown tendencies to go all kill-it-n-grill-it with some sacred Trek cows around here

Sacred cows make great hamburger.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I keep hearing that Montalban had a Mexican accent.

I'm not sure I agree that he sounds Mexican. He doesn't sound like any Mexican actors or celebrities I know.

He kinda had his own thing going. He did sound like he had Latino background, but I don't think he necessarily sounded Mexican (even though he was).

Anyway, I loved Cumberbatch's Khan.

For argument's sake: Didn't the British hang around India for a while? I don't see why Khan couldn't have some British lineage. But then I'm admittedly not an expert on the whole British involvement in India.

Montalban's parents were from Spain,so his accent might have been influenced by theirs.

 

[Shaka Zulu]

There are people who make independent games already that aren't doing half of the shit that Sarkesian & Co. are doing, and they get along fine.

So, live and let live as long as they don't talk or think about their worldview or aspirations in public at all ever. Sounds legit.

The hilarious bit is that a lot of these GGers are the same people who wigged out when Roger Ebert said games can't be art. "Games are totally art, Roger Ebert, you ignorant fool!" Then someone like Sarkeesian comes along and actually critiques them that way -- in incredibly tame and basic terms as gender studies goes, BTW -- and suddenly the script flips and it's "SHUT YOUR WHORE MOUTH!!!!!111!!!11"

[snip the segue into the most laughable misappropriation of poor Weird Al in Internet history]

ZOMG! The "First World problems" gambit coming from a guy supporting a 'consumer revolt' about how 'SJWs' are 'destroying videogames'. Truly, you can't buy irony like that.

At least I'm not wasting my time being a big, outright conniving bitch complaining about video games that I don't even play and aiming to create a situation in which the industry will (most likely) go broke and collapse creating shovelware to serve as a salve for her hurt feelings because she and the rest of the bunch of whiny entitled perpetual pissed off emoprogressives can't use crowdfunding money to compete with the industry by making the games that they want to see.

 

[BigJake]

At least I'm not wasting my time being a big, outright conniving bitch complaining about video games that I don't even play

... aaand I think we're done here.

For those interested in further reading / viewing, we had a thread on and around this sub-topic over in Misc. in which we eventually got round to actually watching some of Anita Sarkeesian's videos (with a side order of debunking common falsehoods about them that seem mostly to stem from a certain YouTube personality with whom much of the frothing fury about Sarkeesian among GamerGate dead-enders seems to have originated). Enjoy.

 

[{ Emilia }]

I find it a bit distressing that people are supporting a misogynist hate group on a Star Trek forum. It makes me feel uncomfortable about posting.

 

[Zaku]

^ you are so right...

 

[Peach Wookiee]

There are people who make independent games already that aren't doing half of the shit that Sarkesian & Co. are doing, and they get along fine.

So, live and let live as long as they don't talk or think about their worldview or aspirations in public at all ever. Sounds legit.

The hilarious bit is that a lot of these GGers are the same people who wigged out when Roger Ebert said games can't be art. "Games are totally art, Roger Ebert, you ignorant fool!" Then someone like Sarkeesian comes along and actually critiques them that way -- in incredibly tame and basic terms as gender studies goes, BTW -- and suddenly the script flips and it's "SHUT YOUR WHORE MOUTH!!!!!111!!!11"

[snip the segue into the most laughable misappropriation of poor Weird Al in Internet history]

ZOMG! The "First World problems" gambit coming from a guy supporting a 'consumer revolt' about how 'SJWs' are 'destroying videogames'. Truly, you can't buy irony like that.

At least I'm not wasting my time being a big, outright conniving bitch complaining about video games that I don't even play and aiming to create a situation in which the industry will (most likely) go broke and collapse creating shovelware to serve as a salve for her hurt feelings because she and the rest of the bunch of whiny entitled perpetual pissed off emoprogressives can't use crowdfunding money to compete with the industry by making the games that they want to see.

Shaka Zulu, I'm sorry but that's trolling. You have hereby earned a day's ban. Please send comments to PM.

 

[JWPlatt]

...and aiming to create a situation in which the industry will (most likely) go broke and collapse creating shovelware... because [they] can't use crowdfunding money to compete with the industry by making the games that they want to see.

I think I must be posting in the wrong thread (wasn't this about STID?), but Myst was one of the most wildly successful computer games of all time. It was (and still is - newly minted for today's platforms) fun, popular, respectful, and a family title all at the same time. And the maker of the game, Cyan Worlds, just used crowdfunding for their next game: Obduction, a "spiritual successor to Myst" due to be released later this year. All you need is imagination, good people, and some hard work.

 

[Jedi_Master]

So have we settled on anything about nuKhan? Is the comic's explanation (that he was surgically altered) a reasonable one?

 

[BigJake]

The comic's explanation was totally unnecessary as a storytelling measure and would not address whitewashing, which is a real-world industry (not in-setting/fanwank) concern. IMO.