Why did late Trek abandon the use of "secondary characters"

[Gotham Central]

TNG and DS9 represented something of a golden age of the ensemble cast in Star Trek. Beyond that though, it was the point at which Trek had the most secondary characters. These were not just guest stars of the week, but where characters the helped to round out the crew while not formally being part of the main ensemble.

TNG had,
Chief O'Brien
Keiko O'Brien
Guinan
Ensign Ro
Alyssia Ogawa
Reg Barklay

DS9 had enogh recurring characters to make a second series
Lt Cmdr. Eddington
Nog (who got more screen tiime than Jake)
Rom
Leeta
Weyoun
Damar
Dukat
Kai Winn
Bariel
Fem. Shapeshifter
Keiko O'Brien + Molly
Cassidy Yeates
Admr. Ross
Gen. Martok
and of course GARAK
(I'm going to consciously ignore Vic Fontane)

DS9 managed to have all of these characters while (some of whom are better developed than main characters on either Voyager or Enterprise) while maintaining a fully fleshed out 9 person main cast.

Voyager started out trying to have an ensemble show with numerous secondary character

Seska
Lt. Carey
Ensign Souter
Lt. Wildman
Vorik
Even the weird guy that ended up being a traitor...

Then the writers dropped all of them and started kicking main characters to the curb as well. What's worse is that these mildly insteresting secondary characters would in effect get replaced by...Naomi Wildman and the Borg Kids (this is the point that Voyager formally became DisneyTrek)

Enterprise dropped the ball completely. Not only were half the gast being systematically ignored, but the show really did not have secondary characters. Shran, Admr. Forrest and Soval were more like recurring guest stars in the mold of Q or Lawaxana Troi.

What makes makes Voyager and Enterprise's lack of secondary characters so odd is that the very situations at the core of the series were perfect environments for such characters. They were ships largely isolated with a set number of personel. Indeed there was an episode of Voyager that could only have been helped dramatically had they had secondary characters. I'm not sure of the episode, but I think it was in season 5 or 6 and featured the "return" of a member of the crew that Voyager was forced to leave behind. The drama of the episode was completely lost because it was about a character that the crew apparenly all knew VERY well, but we the audience had NEVER seen before.

The creatively bankrupt writers on Enterprise obviously thought it worth while to create a characters known only as "chef" who not only was never shown on screen, but they did not even bother to give a name.

I'm just wondering why they abandoned the entire notion of secondary characters especially on shows where such characters might have improved the dramatic situations?

 

[Temis the Vorta]

It's hard to have meaningful secondary characters without story continuity. People forget who the secondaries are and why they matter; they just become background furniture.

ENT brought back the secondary characters concept pretty well when the show started doing continuity in S3. Shran for instance wouldn't have amounted to much if he hadn't had a recurring plotline of his own.

 

[Myasishchev]

The creatively bankrupt writers on Enterprise obviously thought it worth while to create a characters known only as "chef" who not only was never shown on screen, but they did not even bother to give a name.

Oh, but he was. He was Riker. That's because the entire series was a holoprogram on the Enterprise-D.

Seen in this light, TATV was a twist ending worthy of Shyamalan. (Of course, take that for what you will.)

As a serious answer, VOY and ENT didn't do supporting cast because it wasn't really in their creators' nature to create worlds like DS9, or even to do science fiction like TOS and TNG, but to tell adventure stories. This is why both series ultimately failed, one if only creatively, but the other financially as well (though S4 ENT is overall ok).

 

[Ghel]

The creatively bankrupt writers on Enterprise obviously thought it worth while to create a characters known only as "chef" who not only was never shown on screen, but they did not even bother to give a name.

I'm just wondering why they abandoned the entire notion of secondary characters especially on shows where such characters might have improved the dramatic situations?

*thinks to self* Should I respond with something sarcastic, like, "Those creatively bankrupt writers on the Original Series didn't have an ensemble cast either," or should I just comment that for better or worse, Enterprise wasn't trying to be a clone of TNG or DS9?!?

While the quality of Enterprise and/or Voyager can be debated (and is, ad nauseum) the quality of the programs cannot be equated with the number of characters who get focused upon from week to week. As I pointed out above, TOS had only three principal cast members. Scotty, Ohura, Chekov, and Sulu (and MAYBE Rand, and the blond transporter chief) are focused upon extremely infrequently and are even missing from select episodes altogether.

 

[2 of 10]

TNG and DS9 represented something of a golden age of the ensemble cast in Star Trek. Beyond that though, it was the point at which Trek had the most secondary characters. These were not just guest stars of the week, but where characters the helped to round out the crew while not formally being part of the main ensemble.

TNG had,
Chief O'Brien
Keiko O'Brien
Guinan
Ensign Ro
Alyssia Ogawa
Reg Barklay

DS9 had enogh recurring characters to make a second series
Lt Cmdr. Eddington
Nog (who got more screen tiime than Jake)
Rom
Leeta
Weyoun
Damar
Dukat
Kai Winn
Bariel
Fem. Shapeshifter
Keiko O'Brien + Molly
Cassidy Yeates
Admr. Ross
Gen. Martok
and of course GARAK
(I'm going to consciously ignore Vic Fontane)

DS9 managed to have all of these characters while (some of whom are better developed than main characters on either Voyager or Enterprise) while maintaining a fully fleshed out 9 person main cast.

Voyager started out trying to have an ensemble show with numerous secondary character

Seska
Lt. Carey
Ensign Souter
Lt. Wildman
Vorik
Even the weird guy that ended up being a traitor...

Then the writers dropped all of them and started kicking main characters to the curb as well. What's worse is that these mildly insteresting secondary characters would in effect get replaced by...Naomi Wildman and the Borg Kids (this is the point that Voyager formally became DisneyTrek)

Enterprise dropped the ball completely. Not only were half the gast being systematically ignored, but the show really did not have secondary characters. Shran, Admr. Forrest and Soval were more like recurring guest stars in the mold of Q or Lawaxana Troi.

What makes makes Voyager and Enterprise's lack of secondary characters so odd is that the very situations at the core of the series were perfect environments for such characters. They were ships largely isolated with a set number of personel. Indeed there was an episode of Voyager that could only have been helped dramatically had they had secondary characters. I'm not sure of the episode, but I think it was in season 5 or 6 and featured the "return" of a member of the crew that Voyager was forced to leave behind. The drama of the episode was completely lost because it was about a character that the crew apparenly all knew VERY well, but we the audience had NEVER seen before.

The creatively bankrupt writers on Enterprise obviously thought it worth while to create a characters known only as "chef" who not only was never shown on screen, but they did not even bother to give a name.

I'm just wondering why they abandoned the entire notion of secondary characters especially on shows where such characters might have improved the dramatic situations?

The wierd guy who was the traitor was named Michael Jonas, about the best thing Neelix did was to 86 that chump, right into the warp core

 

[ToddKent]

Voyager started out trying to have an ensemble show with numerous secondary character

Seska
Lt. Carey
Ensign Souter
Lt. Wildman
Vorik
Even the weird guy that ended up being a traitor...

There was also the Vulcan engineer (I forgot his name). But he never really turned out to be terribly interesting.

 

[stj]

Drama is about what the character(s) decide(s.) Your drama focuses on the characters making the decisions. That's why Star Trek, Voyager and Enterprise are more than anything about the captain, because the captain makes the decisions. In third season Enterprise, someone like Degra became more important because he made choices, and therefore had to be fleshed out.

The real question is, why was Sisko so relatively unimportant in DS9?

 

[Stephen!]

DS9 had enogh recurring characters to make a second series
Lt Cmdr. Eddington
Nog (who got more screen tiime than Jake)
Rom
Leeta
Weyoun
Damar
Dukat
Kai Winn
Bariel
Fem. Shapeshifter
Keiko O'Brien + Molly
Cassidy Yeates
Admr. Ross
Gen. Martok
and of course GARAK
(I'm going to consciously ignore Vic Fontane)

And also Zek, Ishka, Brunt, Maihar'du, Morn, Shakar, Sloan

 

[Thor Damar]

Drama is about what the character(s) decide(s.) Your drama focuses on the characters making the decisions. That's why Star Trek, Voyager and Enterprise are more than anything about the captain, because the captain makes the decisions. In third season Enterprise, someone like Degra became more important because he made choices, and therefore had to be fleshed out.

The real question is, why was Sisko so relatively unimportant in DS9?

He wasn't. He saved the AQ from the Dominion and kicked Dukat's Arse!
The reason why Sisko seems to be in the background is because of all the great Characters around him (even the Starfleeters and the Klingons) and the great drama that ensues.

And THAT ladies and Gentlemen is why Deep Space Nine is the greatest Star Trek series ever!

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

TOS didn't have an ensemble cast, and it remains the best Trek series - "golden ages" to the contrary.

 

[captcalhoun]

Voyager started out trying to have an ensemble show with numerous secondary character

Seska
Lt. Carey
Ensign Souter
Lt. Wildman
Vorik
Even the weird guy that ended up being a traitor...

There was also the Vulcan engineer (I forgot his name). But he never really turned out to be terribly interesting.

that was Vorik, genius

 

[The Grim Ghost]

TOS didn't need secondary characters because the main characters were so damned interesting.

I say this as a Voyager fan, but Voyager could have been immensely better by adding some strong secondary cast members. Most of the main characters just weren't that interesting. When the most interesting character on the ship is a hologram you've got a problem.. They did add a few in th end, but they were mainly boring and were never fleshed out well.

Nothing could have helped Enterprise.

 

[dreadpiraterose]

"creatively bankrupt writers on Enterprise"

There you go. That's exactly why they couldn't manage it. And they were a lot of the same producers behind Voyager.

 

[Harvey]

I don't know about Chef. Was he any different than Deep Space Nine's ongoing in-joke about Morn's propensity to be a loud-mouth?

Secondary characters are important, dramatically, because it doesn't make sense that the principals would never get to know any of them, and, secondly, it inscribes the beats where a lowly officer is killed or put in jeopardy with actual drama and relevance. When Voyager discarded most of its secondary characters, it became less interesting.

 

[omnirad]

The producers of VOY and ENT started out wanting to make more TNG. A large cast that had the spotlight shone on each of them periodicly.

The VOY spotlight narrowed down to Janeway, 7 and the Dr. vs. aliens of the week, and spacial anomalies. Secondary character status was awarded to Cmndr. Diminishing Shield Strength, Lt. Exploding Console, and Mr. Coffee. To B&B that was excitement!

ENT couldn't help but start down TNG lane again, but got a TOS transfusion of 'the Captain, the Vulcan, and the Southern Guy', vs. purile sexual highjynx and its associated emotional denial. Season 1-3 secondary characters were Ms. DeCon Gel, Blue Speedo, and Porthos the loveable pooch.



WHY did this happen? It's spelled UPN+B&B=AOK$$$LOL

 

[Icemizer]

I dont agree that TNG had good secondary characters. O'brien appeared in many but was just a face until his Cardassian story and not devoloped until DS9. Ogawa got more mentions than screentime. Ro was there and then gone never to be mentioned again. DS9 would be the best at keeping all the players involved. They even made Morn important to the show.

 

[Unicron]

It's hard to have meaningful secondary characters without story continuity. People forget who the secondaries are and why they matter; they just become background furniture.

I think this is a good point, Temis. I'm working on a story now which includes some secondary characters along with my protagonists, and I'm trying to be sure that all of them contribute something, even if they're partly there as backdrops or cannon fodder. And I created some of them to include friends in the story, so I try to give those characters a little more of the spotlight.

Icemizer, I'd probably disagree with you about Ro - along with O'Brien, she was probably the only other supporting character who got fleshed out a bit and had some decent roles in some eps.

 

[Scoobysnacks]

After watching the reruns of DS9 and reading this thread I have to say, as a Voyager fan (it's the first show I started watching from the pilot as I was only able to see reruns of the others, being too young to stay up that late when they started) I'll flat out say it--I've been convinced, while I have the most sentimental attachment to Voyager, DS9 was the best overall production. Sorry but early TNG's rocky technically, despite the good efforts. And Voyager's 'glory days' were the first 2 or 3 years which were echos of mid-TNG in retrospect. I enjoyed the secondary characters theory. Can we argue the ones that ended early--either literally or spiritually like Voyager, ENT and TOS--didn't have enough money being applied to casting? Is that possible? You wouldn't have to work hard with TOS to convince me they probably barely had enough to keep the lights on. The other two maybe put it all into tech stuff and the tight borg outfits for VOY or body oil for ENT. To be fair, Jeri Ryan brought two supporting characters with her.

 

[Gotham Central]

I don't know about Chef. Was he any different than Deep Space Nine's ongoing in-joke about Morn's propensity to be a loud-mouth?

You can't really compare Chef and Morn. For one thing, Morn actually had a name (and it managed to be a cool homage to Cheers). Secondly Morn was actually on screen. When someone mentions Morn, you know who they are talking about. Additionally, for a character that never spoke, Morn not only got screen time with the main cast, but the character even manged to play a significant role in the plot of a few episodes. He had a species name, a job, and even a backstory.

Morn is actually a good example of how much better DS9 was at writing for its characters. When a non speaking background character on DS9 manages to be more interesting than main characters on Voyager and Enterprise, something is definately wrong.

 

[Broccoli]

I think that it is worth nothing that DS9 allowed itself more to have a bunch of secondary characters, even it's format and storyline. ENT, considering they were always on the move (especially in its first two years), didn't.

Enterprise dropped the ball completely. Not only were half the gast being systematically ignored, but the show really did not have secondary characters. Shran, Admr. Forrest and Soval were more like recurring guest stars in the mold of Q or Lawaxana Troi.

This is a load of bunk, especially since you have on the DS9 list characters such as Damar, Eddington, Winn, Leeta, Bariel, and all the Ferengi characters among others. I would say they, too, were guest starts in the mold of Q or Lawaxana Troi. The only up screen time they got wasn't until season 6 and 7 when things started to get wrapped up.

Also, let us not forget the surplus of secondary characters in season 3 of ENT.

Also, look at what a secondary character does. The character adds to the already established cast, as opposed to a guest character where the character is the focus of the episode. Characters like Forrest, Soval, etc were never the focus of the episode and were there to add to what was going on.