Why did DS9 make season seven so "fantasy"?

[plynch]

Season Seven: WOW. What happened? "Wraiths" that have to be released from the "Fire Caves" by way of a magic book that bursts into flame when innocent blood is dripped on it thereby making the writing appear??!! A surgically-altered Dukat goes blind from two mini fireballs, for looking at the magic text??

Why, oh why did DS9Trek become so Lord of the Rings-ish for its last season?

 

[willg]

DS9 always had that element of religion and the supernatural. I remember reading that the writers didn't want it just to be focused on the Dominion War.

 

[Navaros]

IMO:

Combination of: Behr losing his mind insofar as insisting on completely ruining the amazing character of Dukat in Season 6, combined with Wolfe leaving at the end of Season 5 and hence not being there to rein in Behr's insanity, combined with the other writers not manning up and reining in Behr's insanity.

Basically, once they assasinated Dukat's brilliant multi-dimensional character in Waltz and replaced it with a one-dimensional caricature that belongs in lesser shows and not DS9, there wasn't any other way to go from there aside from an ever-worsening downward snowball of nonsense.

Why did Behr lose his mind regarding Dukat, now that's a question I'd love to see answered by him. Someone should interview him and ask him some hardball questions about that directly.

 

[plynch]

I'm with ya on the ruination of Dukat. A great character: Not only did he think he did some good for the Bajorans, it is possible he actually DID lessen their burdens. While still being a tyrant. A great character until he is surgically altered and loves the Pagh Wraiths and gets blinded by the magic book. Weird.

 

[plynch]

DS9 always had that element of religion and the supernatural. I remember reading that the writers didn't want it just to be focused on the Dominion War.

For sure it had religion in it (at least Trek's simplistic version: chanting in non-translated language with candles going). But the tone really changes: Instead of a science fiction story of a people worshiping wormhole aliens that might or might not be protectors, it feels more like fantasy.

I WILL say that the surgically altered Dukat is right about the prophets - they sure didn't protect the Bajorans much.

 

[Damask]

I WILL say that the surgically altered Dukat is right about the prophets - they sure didn't protect the Bajorans much.

Sure they did. They sent their Emissary a vision of the Dominion invading the Alpha Quandrant/joining Cardassia which prevented Bajor being the first planet to fall to the Dominion.

They destroyed/removed an entire fleet of Dominion ships to protect Bajor (protecting the Alpha quadrant was a side effect)

They were going to usher a golden age of peace for Bajor until Kai Winn got involved.

As for the Occupation...well my view is that Prophets needed Bajor to suffer to allow them to accept Federation help. Without it, the very insular Bajorans probably wouldn't have thought about joining the Federation and thus would never meet their Emissary.

 

[Jono]

I'd question about how much the Prophet's care about the Bajorans. Their only real concern in the corporeal world was the maintenance of their prison for the Pah-Wraiths. THe Bajorans just happen to live next door to it.

 

[Sykonee]

How big was televised fantasy in 98/99? I know Xena had been doing very well up to that point, such that there were a lot of, er, 'lesser' knock-offs being produced (Conan, Sinbad, etc). As I recall, the supernatural thriller was started to gain momentum then too. Maybe Behr wanted a piece of that pie?

 

[Daneel]

Why did Behr lose his mind regarding Dukat, now that's a question I'd love to see answered by him. Someone should interview him and ask him some hardball questions about that directly.

IIRC, Behr did talk about Dukat in a few interviews, in which he stated that he viewed the character as "the most evil person in the galaxy", something like Hitler on an interstellar scale. As to his fate with the Pah-Wraiths, Behr simply remarked that Dukat "deserved to be in hell".

I don't know, I think Behr took too simplistic a view here. No, I don't think Dukat was a good man, overall (he did do some pretty reprehensible things during the Occupation), but throughout the series we often saw different facets of character... sometimes even moments of tenderness and decency (even if he always remained somewhat arrogant and ruthless). I think the writers did a disservice to the character from mid-Season 6 on.

As for too much fantasy in Season 7... yeah, I agree. It's true that element had always been there, but I never thought it was the strongest aspect of the series, and it felt like they went overboard with it during the final season.

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

Honestly, I have never been upset about Dukat's usage in Seasons six and seven. Ultimately, Dukat was a character about choices - what we saw in seasons four and five had shown us that if he'd chosen to be, he could have been a good man. However, he instead saw the chance to gain power, to force the galaxy to accept his view of himself - as a god among men. He may not have seen himself as the villain, but he certainly had a superiority complex - he was BETTER than the Bajorans, the Federation... even his own people. He did engage in secret negotiations with the Dominion and got himself made head of the Cardassian government, after all. And Dukat always saw Sisko as the closest thing he had to a rival. So it makes sense that, once he begins to realize that Sisko is so important to the Prophets, as they dealt with the Dominion reinforcements in the wormhole, he certainly couldn't let someone else be better than him, so he sought out the Pai-Wraths.

Dukat may or may not be the most evil man in the galaxy, but he's certainly the most reviled Cardassian on Bajor. If he really did do such altruistic things for the Bajoran people, why exactly do they hate him?

 

[Navaros]

^

IMO they hate Dukat simply because he was 'the face' of the Occupation. When something goes wrong, everyone always wants a tangible specific person to take the blame for it.

Yes Dukat is megalomaniacal but that's not so bad, really. It's more irritating than anything else, in a cutesy, Harry Mudd sort of way. That's why his scenes with Weyoun are so funny ("war is thirsty work eh?" etc). If Dukat was really evil, they wouldn't be funny.

 

[RobertScorpio]

Honestly, I have never been upset about Dukat's usage in Seasons six and seven. Ultimately, Dukat was a character about choices - what we saw in seasons four and five had shown us that if he'd chosen to be, he could have been a good man. However, he instead saw the chance to gain power, to force the galaxy to accept his view of himself - as a god among men. He may not have seen himself as the villain, but he certainly had a superiority complex - he was BETTER than the Bajorans, the Federation... even his own people. He did engage in secret negotiations with the Dominion and got himself made head of the Cardassian government, after all. And Dukat always saw Sisko as the closest thing he had to a rival. So it makes sense that, once he begins to realize that Sisko is so important to the Prophets, as they dealt with the Dominion reinforcements in the wormhole, he certainly couldn't let someone else be better than him, so he sought out the Pai-Wraths.

Dukat may or may not be the most evil man in the galaxy, but he's certainly the most reviled Cardassian on Bajor. If he really did do such altruistic things for the Bajoran people, why exactly do they hate him?

I totally agree...the earlier posts who bash on Behr are really pushing their credibility...WALTZ should have one alamo an emmy..and For them to say Dukat "did them some good" during the Occupation makes me wonder if they have the same opinion of Hitler and Stalin..geee..what are they teaching kids in school these days...

Rob

 

[Navaros]

Dukat didn't do anything like Hitler or Stalin.

I would say it's pushing credibility to claim Dukat didn't get ludicrously fubared in Waltz, and that Behr didn't get it wrong to desire for a vastly inferior one-dimensional 'evil' character rather than the fascinating not-evil character that was Dukat for 6 years before Waltz.

I agree Alaimo should have won an Emmy, more than one, in fact. His acting remained immaculate even after they assasinated his character.

 

[plynch]

I've waded into this Dukat - how evil? question before and have no need again. But, "Fire Caves"? Bah humbug. I think poster above might be onto something with the Xena/fantasy trend on tv then.

Honestly, DS9 -watching it in order- doesn't live up to my "first run" memories, nor to so many opinions on this BBS that it is great. Except Garak.

I've never watched new Battlestar. Is it more consistently written? Everybody raves, but I'm kinda doubtful now after DS9 being merely "ok" to me.

(By the way, if you LOVE DS9 - that's great - this is all a matter of taste, I'm sure.)

Be well, all.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

I think the reason people get so angry about season six/seven (concerning the supernatural aspect of the show) is because this good versus evil thing pops up, and it leaves no question unanswered, no blanks to fill. Up until then you had plenty shades of grey, but it all stopped right there- the Prophets and Bajorans are good, in fact Sisko and the gang are the "good guys". The baddies are so bad it makes one's brain bleed (thank you Virginia Woolf for the use of that particular pronoun).

No ambiguities, that's what I'm trying to say. They had been there, but eventually, they vanished. We got told explicitly who's good and who's bad.

That's annoying. And don't get me started on deus ex machina.

 

[Jaespol]

It was a terrible mistake and really tainted the seventh season.

 

[plynch]

I WILL say that the surgically altered Dukat is right about the prophets - they sure didn't protect the Bajorans much.

Sure they did. They sent their Emissary a vision of the Dominion invading the Alpha Quandrant/joining Cardassia which prevented Bajor being the first planet to fall to the Dominion.

They destroyed/removed an entire fleet of Dominion ships to protect Bajor (protecting the Alpha quadrant was a side effect)

They were going to usher a golden age of peace for Bajor until Kai Winn got involved.

As for the Occupation...well my view is that Prophets needed Bajor to suffer to allow them to accept Federation help. Without it, the very insular Bajorans probably wouldn't have thought about joining the Federation and thus would never meet their Emissary.

In the words of that inimitable philosopher Daffy Duck, "With friends like these, who needs enemies?"

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

In any discussion of non-linear entities, it always gets confusing - when you think about it, at the time Sisko is in the wormhole explaining the concept of baseball, he's also there, asking for the Prophets to do something about the Dominion invaders, and is also there with the guy who thinks because he found the wormhole three hundred years before it makes HIM the Emissary, AND Sisko's also there, having joined the Prophets after the whole Fire Caves thing.

Ultimately, the Prophets couldn't interfere with the Occupation occuring because when the Sisko explains about linear time, the Occupation has already occured and so it must happen in order for everything else to happen.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go find a Runabout full of Aspirin for this headache...

 

[CaptainStoner]

I think the reason people get so angry about season six/seven (concerning the supernatural aspect of the show) is because this good versus evil thing pops up, and it leaves no question unanswered, no blanks to fill. Up until then you had plenty shades of grey, but it all stopped right there- the Prophets and Bajorans are good, in fact Sisko and the gang are the "good guys". The baddies are so bad it makes one's brain bleed (thank you Virginia Woolf for the use of that particular pronoun).

No ambiguities, that's what I'm trying to say. They had been there, but eventually, they vanished. We got told explicitly who's good and who's bad.

That's annoying. And don't get me started on deus ex machina.

I see those points, however - I've just watched these eps for the first time - there are multiple transformations going on, as well as reversals. Kai Win, for instance. I think she might have been "more evil" than Dukat in some ways, but she pulls a 180 at the last moment, and is rewarded with quick death rather than eternity with the Wraiths. There is the transformation of Demar - although once in "hero" mode, he practically becomes a paladin. There is the unexpectedly "good" mutation of a Weyoun clone.
I suppose it did have to polarize in order to resolve some plot lines, but there were a lot of twists involved, that perhaps aren't as fun on repeated viewings. Sisko's fate - I should have seen that coming.

What I found annoying about S7 wasn't the fantasy elements, but the deviation from the main plot - or - wishing there had been one or two more eps in which to do the final story arc.

 

[Anwar]

Well, I suppose a better way of having the two plots (Pagh Wraiths and Dominion War) dovetail would have been for Dukat to realize that the Pagh Wraiths were the best way of neutralizing the Prophets and allowing the Dominion reinforcements to come through from the Gamma Quadrant. Then he gets more drawn into it, becoming the Pagh Wraith Emmissary.