Spoilers Why did Discovery still make the jump?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by Starflight, Apr 19, 2019.

  1. Starflight

    Starflight Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Reading through the thread for the finale and I'm seeing this point being raised. That thread can be quite hard to follow and there doesn't seem to be a dedicated thread for discussing this yet, so here's one.

    After Georgiou disabled Control, why did the jump to 950 years in the future still need to take place? Was it intended to ensure the Sphere data was rendered inaccessible? If so, jumping blindly into a wormhole that leads to a time period potentially populated by people we know nothing about seems like it could be putting the data in even more danger than remaining home would have done. Was there no time to find a way to destroy Discovery, thus ensuring the data was truly safe from falling into the wrong hands?

    Additionally, is there any reason why the jump, if still necessary, had to happen immediately? With the battle over and Control's drones disabled, did nobody think to contact Burnham and inform her the jump was no longer imperative? No time to get the many wounded people off the ship, no time for Spock to rejoin the Discovery?

    I can accept the sphere data as a good enough reason to still make the jump, but the episode (from what I recall of it, anyway - I haven't given it a rewatch yet) doesn't really seem to make it clear what's actually going on or what the characters' motivations are after Georgiou reports the removal of Control.
     
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  2. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The Spore Drive can jump them anywhere in the universe. Go 50 galaxies over and Control won't find them for thousands of years.:shrug:
     
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  3. Midquest

    Midquest Commander Red Shirt

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    I'd say that the jump was still imperative.

    Thing is, Control was not destroyed in the battle. Only the autonomous part of Control embodied in Leland was eliminated. The epilogue indicates that Starfleet Command then purged the rest of Control afterwards. However, this scene seems to deliberately cast some doubt on whether this has been done well.

    Yeah, OK. Just like that, huh? The scene (to me, anyway) portrays the officer as cocksure and shifty, letting us see him only in partial glimpses. Simply by having Tyler ask if Control has been truly eliminated, the episode also seeds the possibility that--maybe--it hasn't.

    So if they want to avoid a rogue AI emerging suddenly and assimilating (sorry) the data, they still need to get the ship out of the 23rd century, and do it quickly. Where Control will show up, or if it will become corrupt, is unpredictable. So, yes, the Sphere data would never not be a major wildcard and risk as long as it stayed in the current era.

    Jumping a galaxy over or whatever isn't good enough, I would guess, given the moral issues it presents. Jump away while Control consumes the Federation, massacring billions? Not on our heroes' watch, surely.

    As for blindly jumping, that's not quite the case from their point of view (we'll see what happens next season). As far as the crew knows, they're jumping to Terralysium, a safe harbor where Control can never reach them due to its lack of advanced technology. Whether this is borne out remains to be seen, but they were jumping with a specific plan. This is called out during the scene between Burnham and Spock when they realize why the signals pointed them to Reno, etc.

    There's also the fact that our heroes have set up a situation in which Starfleet never creates an AI again. Pike, Spock, and Tyler in particular really drive home that Section 31 messed up in creating Control:

    So we kind of get the rationale after the battle, but it seems like the big picture here is to not just stop Control but to ensure that no unsavory elements--humanoid or AI--ever try to go get that data through time travel or any other means. History must forget about Discovery, the Sphere data, and any advanced technology so that it doesn't make anyone without compromised ethics try to retrieve it.

    I don't think I answered all your questions, but these are the thoughts that occur to me. :)
     
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  4. Scout101

    Scout101 Admiral Admiral

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    Control was battering down their shields anyway, why not just let them help, and then send some extra torpedoes once they went down? Giving up on destroying it was lazy. Oh no, it has shields, now what? Oh wait, Enterprise is armed, just blow it up. Or manually create a warp core breach and beam away, it’ll be fine. Lots of easy ways to do it...
     
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  5. Alan Roi

    Alan Roi Commodore Captain

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    How is it going to do that with its only pilot in a coma with a sucking chest wound?
     
  6. Alan Roi

    Alan Roi Commodore Captain

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    It's lazy to commit to a plan and then not carry through? Weird.
     
  7. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    That only happened during the final battle. Had they jumped away instead of even beginning the Red Angel/wormhole plan, he'd never have been hurt. And I doubt there's a way to track them through the spore network, so Control would never know where they went.
     
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  8. Starflight

    Starflight Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Thanks Midquest, you've answered most of my questions. Most of the issues I still have revolve around the jump having to happen immediately as opposed to some time in the future after more alternatives had been looked into (for example, I'm still not really satisfied with the reasons the show gives us as to why Discovery can't just be destroyed), but I suppose there was only a very short amount of time between Control-Leland being destroyed and the jump actually becoming irreversible.

    EDIT: Also still a little confused about their plan - good points about Spock and Burnham realising that Red Angel Burnham had intentionally laid a destination out for them, but it still feels like flying almost blind, and Control seems to exist in the future, unless the alleged purging prevents the Control that modified the probe from ever existing.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2019
  9. Alan Roi

    Alan Roi Commodore Captain

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    Jumping away does not fix the problem of Control however, as it is, it just pulls back, builds its power going after secondary targets from the shadows. However, being hung out as bait brings Leland out into the open in to get his entire fleet destroyed.
     
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  10. Longinus

    Longinus Rear Admiral Commodore

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    Yep. The whole thing didn't make any sense. It was obvious that the writers wanted the Disco to end up in the future and thus the characters hatched this harebrained plan and steadfastly committed to it, refusing to consider alternatives, even if didn't make any sense.

    And of course jumping 950 years is not a guaranteed way to avoid Control getting the data. How do you know Control still isn't around? In fact, as Mama Burnham described the future, it certainly still was around.
     
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  11. dodge

    dodge Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That future is the one where Control gets the sphere data, so it should be different now.
     
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  12. Fateor

    Fateor Captain Captain

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    Sending Discovery into the future doesn't fix the problem of Control either.
     
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  13. Alan Roi

    Alan Roi Commodore Captain

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    Yes it does. It no longer has the only thing it knows which will turn it into future Control.
     
  14. Alan Roi

    Alan Roi Commodore Captain

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    Mama Burnham came from a future where Control always got the Sphere data. This is like saying, how did we know allowing Edith Keeler die would restore the timeline in City on the Edge of Forever.
     
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  15. Fateor

    Fateor Captain Captain

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    Which it also wouldn't have had if they had just spore jumped 50 million lightyears away.
     
  16. Alan Roi

    Alan Roi Commodore Captain

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    But still an ongoing problem of dozens of ships to mess up the Federation from the shadows. How does jumping 50 million light years away solve that problem?
     
  17. Starflight

    Starflight Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    If Burnham altering the timeline means that future Control never exists, that means that the probe never gets modified, which means Airiam never gets taken over, which means Discovery is never lured to Section 31 HQ, which means they never fight Control in the same way in the first place, which means that Burnham never went to send the signals to alter the timeline, which means that aaaaaaaaaah
     
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  18. dodge

    dodge Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I don't mind the way it went down, but it would have been cleaner if, for example, Stamets somehow got sucked into the future an episode or so back, that would both explain why they couldn't just spore jump far away, and it would give the crew an additional incentive to go after him.
     
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  19. Alan Roi

    Alan Roi Commodore Captain

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    the same thing happens in City on the Edge of Forever. if McCoy saves Edith Keeler, the Federation and Starfleet never exists, and so on.
     
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  20. Longinus

    Longinus Rear Admiral Commodore

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    Unless the future Control catches the Discovery and the Red Suit, and uses the Red Suit to deliver the data to the past Control...

    Or if the past control has laid dormant somewhere waiting the data to arrive...

    Or if in this intervening millennia someone else has actually developed a different A.I. that would be equally dangerous with the sphere data...