Why Did Data Know So Little About Idioms?

[The Old Mixer]

I think that it could have been a process in which Data started off acting particularly inhuman, and was treated as such. As he gradually picked up on human behavior, the more he successfully acted human, the more he was treated as one.

I wonder if having the personal records and correspondence of the colonists programmed into him might have actually played a role in his being treated as less human? Perhaps, lacking first-hand experience, he started off acting very imitative of the dead colonists, creeping people out in the process?

Another thing to keep in mind is that only in "Datalore" do they learn that Dr. Soong was one of the colonists and had created him, as well as of the nature of what killed the colonists. Prior to that, Data's exact nature was a mystery. IIRC, his early backstory in offscreen sources was that he was believed to have been left there as a gesture by aliens who had accidentally killed the colonists. I could see where that "origin" would have made people less comfortable around him, and less inclined to treat him as human.

As for how he was treated on the Enterprise, I'm inclined to believe that Picard led by the power of his example.

I'd like to know how he struck up such a fast friendship with Geordi. Two episodes after they presumably first meet, he's walking into Geordi's quarters calling him "my friend". That always felt shoehorned in to me, though it turned out fine.

 

[Red Ranger]

I think that it could have been a process in which Data started off acting particularly inhuman, and was treated as such. As he gradually picked up on human behavior, the more he successfully acted human, the more he was treated as one.

I wonder if having the personal records and correspondence of the colonists programmed into him might have actually played a role in his being treated as less human? Perhaps, lacking first-hand experience, he started off acting very imitative of the dead colonists, creeping people out in the process?

Another thing to keep in mind is that only in "Datalore" do they learn that Dr. Soong was one of the colonists and had created him, as well as of the nature of what killed the colonists. Prior to that, Data's exact nature was a mystery. IIRC, his early backstory in offscreen sources was that he was believed to have been left there as a gesture by aliens who had accidentally killed the colonists. I could see where that "origin" would have made people less comfortable around him, and less inclined to treat him as human.

As for how he was treated on the Enterprise, I'm inclined to believe that Picard led by the power of his example.

I'd like to know how he struck up such a fast friendship with Geordi. Two episodes after they presumably first meet, he's walking into Geordi's quarters calling him "my friend". That always felt shoehorned in to me, though it turned out fine.

Old Mixer:

Some good points. Addressing your last one, I also thought it was kind of shoehorned. Maybe Data calling Geordi "my friend" was one way of trying to be human. Then again, from early on they established Geordi as quite good-natured and friendly.

I think Commander Riker also quickly refers to Data as my friend, I think in Encounter at Farpoint. I also liked the bit when they meet up in the holodeck and Riker says, "You're going to be an interesting companion, Mr. Data."

Agree that Picard was always good at leading by example. If you recall, though, he would get irritated at Data in the early eps, like when Data is trying to act like Sherlock Holmes. When he ditches the Holmesian pipe, Picard gruffly say, "At least you got rid of that damn pipe!"

I think I'm going to have to pick up Christopher's Buried Age story.

Red Ranger

 

[Christopher]

Your take on Data in your novel is interesting. But is it realistic to think that the only Starfleet officer that would treat Data as more than just a walking encyclopedia would be Picard, as exceptional and sensitive as he is? After all, several of the other officers on Enterprise also treated Data like a person, even though both Commander Riker, and esp. Dr. Pulaski, had some trepidation about him.

I never said Picard was the only one, but he was the first. He encouraged Data to assert himself more, to make more of an effort to interact with others and let them get to know him. So that when Data came aboard the Enterprise a few years later, he'd made a fair amount of social progress. Also, the captain sets the example for his crew. The way Picard treated Data, the respect he extended to Data, would've influenced how others perceived and interacted with him.

I always thought there must be some officer who became an early mentor of Data in the ways of humanity, a bit like how he became Q's "professor of the humanities" in Deja Q. An early sponsor, perhaps even the captain of the ship that discovered Data.

I think the young-adult Starfleet Academy books about Data depicted something of the sort. It's been a long time since I read them, though.

As for prejudice against Data, we did see it against the Doctor in VOY. As I recall, he was miffed he was treated like a device by several crew members and made his grievances known to Janeway. Given Data's inoffensive nature, he probably would have just been curious about similar reactions to him by other crew members.

That's sort of the approach I took in the novel -- that he would've preferred not being treated that way, but accepted it without protest.

I think that it could have been a process in which Data started off acting particularly inhuman, and was treated as such. As he gradually picked up on human behavior, the more he successfully acted human, the more he was treated as one.

Possibly, except the irony is that Data acted a lot more human in the first and second seasons of TNG than he did later.

Another thing to keep in mind is that only in "Datalore" do they learn that Dr. Soong was one of the colonists and had created him, as well as of the nature of what killed the colonists. Prior to that, Data's exact nature was a mystery.

Which ceased to make a lick of sense the moment they cast Brent Spiner as Noonien Soong. Starfleet finds a positronic android who looks and sounds exactly like the great robotics scientist who was famous for trying to build a positronic brain, and it doesn't occur to anyone that there's a connection? For that matter, it's implausible even without the physical resemblance.

This was something I had a devil of a time dealing with in the novel when trying to examine Data's early life. I couldn't come up with a rationalization for the idea that nobody knew Soong had built him even though he looked and sounded like Soong and was a living embodiment of Soong's theories. I just sort of glossed over the issue of what others might have theorized about his origins and came up with a rationale for why Data himself never sought to uncover them.

Implicitly, I figured a lot of people must've suspected Soong created him, but had no concrete proof. It was at least possible that someone else had built Data and used Soong's likeness as an homage, but that seems like more of a stretch.

IIRC, his early backstory in offscreen sources was that he was believed to have been left there as a gesture by aliens who had accidentally killed the colonists. I could see where that "origin" would have made people less comfortable around him, and less inclined to treat him as human.

Not quite. Rather, the aliens had been unable to save the colonists from some kind of disaster, and so preserved their memories in Data. Originally he was supposed to contain their actual memories and personalities, not just their logs and journals. (His description in the original writer's guide also said his name rhymed with "that-a," that he would have an Asian appearance, and that he "usually avoids contractions.")

In the actual series continuity, however, Data was never believed to have been built by aliens. All that was known was that he was discovered on Omicron Theta sometime after a disaster.

I'd like to know how he struck up such a fast friendship with Geordi. Two episodes after they presumably first meet, he's walking into Geordi's quarters calling him "my friend". That always felt shoehorned in to me, though it turned out fine.

Darn, maybe I could've filled that in if the book hadn't ended before Geordi came aboard. Anyway, the original writer's bible said their friendship was strengthened by a secret desire to be "fully human" (which in Geordi's case meant having normal eyes). So the idea was that they bonded as fellow outsiders, more or less.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Yeah...I first saw ''Datalore" in syndication after having seen "Brothers", and the whole idea that nobody put 2 + 2 together about the Data/Soong connection was a WTF.

Likewise, in "The Schzoid Man", we might surmise that Dr. Graves recognized Data as Soong's work because he looked just like Soong...but if so, Graves was being coy about it, as he said that he recognized the aesthetic of Soong's work, rather than his face.

In "Datalore" itself, though, before the physical resemblance had been established, it's made clear that nobody knew Soong had been one of the colonists. (Though it seems like the colonists themselves knew, and if they knew, wouldn't Data have known? Even by itself, the episode is full of holes.) So if they didn't even know Soong had been there, it's reasonable that they wouldn't have made the leap that Data had been created by the Noonian Soong, just because Soong had been trying to create something similar.

I have no problem with the basis of the Geordi/Data friendship, I just wish that we'd seen the spark for it onscreen. Riker at least got some onscreen "face time" with Data before he made the leap to friendship. (And some novelists of the time didn't get that he was Data's friend at all, but expanded Riker's intitial reservations about Data into an ongoing out-and-out bigotry against him.)

Has anyone written a novel to explain where the hell Troi's accent came from? Both of her parents wound up speaking American English.

 

[Christopher]

Yeah...I first saw ''Datalore" in syndication after having seen "Brothers", and the whole idea that nobody put 2 + 2 together about the Data/Soong connection was a WTF.

It wouldn't have been a problem if Keye Luke, who'd been slated to play Soong in "Brothers," hadn't died suddenly, requiring a quick recasting decision. Except for the ways in which "Datalore" itself fails to make sense.

So if they didn't even know Soong had been there, it's reasonable that they wouldn't have made the leap that Data had been created by the Noonian Soong, just because Soong had been trying to create something similar.

No, they wouldn't have had proof, but that doesn't mean the possibility wouldn't have occurred to them.

(And some novelists of the time didn't get that he was Data's friend at all, but expanded Riker's intitial reservations about Data into an ongoing out-and-out bigotry against him.)

Only one novelist did that, Diane Carey, in Ghost Ship, a novel that was written before the series premiered and was based solely on the original writers' bible and the script for "Farpoint." The bible specifically said that Riker would have difficulty accepting Data and that they would only gradually develop an efficient working relationship and friendship. Carey had no way of knowing that the writers would abandon that completely after "Farpoint."

Has anyone written a novel to explain where the hell Troi's accent came from? Both of her parents wound up speaking American English.

I don't think that's been explained yet.

 

[The Old Mixer]

IIRC, the seed for the extended Riker bigotry had been planted in the novelization for "Farpoint", but it could have gone either way from what was depicted there.

And yes, I did try to read Ghost Ship. It was a traumatic experience.

 

[Timo]

Unfortunately, a couple of later episodes like "The Offspring" treated it as though he couldn't use contractions at all, which was really silly, especially since he never had trouble using contractions when quoting others or reciting dialogue.

To be sure, the only thing said about this in "The Offspring" is that Data laments he has not "mastered" the contractions thing whereas Lal has it down pat from birth. "Mastering" may refer to any level of competence, especially for our pedantic little machine friend.

(Though it seems like the colonists themselves knew, and if they knew, wouldn't Data have known? Even by itself, the episode is full of holes.)

Alternately, Data was the one full of holes. If Soong were to be secretive about his affairs, naturally he'd take pains to block this information from Data's mind.

We never quite learn whether it was Soong or the other colonists who left Data on that rock slab as a recording of the disaster that befell them. If the former, the secrecy could be Soong's doing. If the latter, it would be all the more understandable that Data miserably failed in the task of relating the nature of the disaster to fellow humans - a user error made by the amateurs in programming the complex and rather alien machine.

In either case, we should probably accept that the whole colony was one of those insanely isolationist, let's-get-away-from-Establishment setups that kept highly incomplete records and probably didn't attract much Starfleet attention even when horribly perishing. The skipper of the Tripoli no doubt just muttered "Their own damn fault, the fools" before saying "Engage!" and moving to his next assignment posthaste.

So if they didn't even know Soong had been there, it's reasonable that they wouldn't have made the leap that Data had been created by the Noonian Soong, just because Soong had been trying to create something similar.

You know, it all would be much easier to swallow if all of our away team members hadn't chimed in with the "Dr. Soong is Earth's most famous robotician and trumps Elvis in recognizability in general polls" lines. I mean, the Federation could plausibly have been teeming with roboticians more famous and successful than the single lunatic who babbled about positronics, so that only, say, LaForge would recognize the name.

(Really, do we know that "Earth's most prominent robotician" is that famous a person? Perhaps Earth is renown in the Federation for its incompetence in this field, allowing Soong to fade to obscurity except among the immediate community that fondly remembers this eccentric.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[The Old Mixer]

You know, it all would be much easier to swallow if all of our away team members hadn't chimed in with the "Dr. Soong is Earth's most famous robotician and trumps Elvis in recognizability in general polls" lines. I mean, the Federation could plausibly have been teeming with roboticians more famous and successful than the single lunatic who babbled about positronics, so that only, say, LaForge would recognize the name.

I thought the same thing, having first seen the episode in hindsight of "Brothers". Had Noonian Soong been an obscure, irreputable kook in the scientific community, I could swallow that nobody recognized his face. But Data, being what he was, should have gained enough attention from the cybernetics community to have been recognized instantly as having been made in Soong's image, considering that even laypeople like Starfleet security officers could quote chapter and verse about the guy.

 

[Christopher]

Unfortunately, a couple of later episodes like "The Offspring" treated it as though he couldn't use contractions at all, which was really silly, especially since he never had trouble using contractions when quoting others or reciting dialogue.

To be sure, the only thing said about this in "The Offspring" is that Data laments he has not "mastered" the contractions thing whereas Lal has it down pat from birth. "Mastering" may refer to any level of competence, especially for our pedantic little machine friend.

Which is consistent with my hypothesis that the striking thing about Lal doing it was the effortlessness of it.

Although I'm pretty sure the contraction issue came up in at least one other episode; I can't remember which one, though.

Alternately, Data was the one full of holes. If Soong were to be secretive about his affairs, naturally he'd take pains to block this information from Data's mind.

Which would work, if it hadn't been for the fact that, in "Datalore," it was Data himself who told the others that the colonists' records contained references to a Dr. Soong. So clearly he did have access to that information.

Although I suppose it's possible that the files were damaged in some way, so that he couldn't access them until he actually arrived at Omicron Theta and perceived things that "reminded" him of that information, i.e. let him access it through a set of associational links he didn't have before. After all, we know his brain is a neural network, structured like the human brain rather than a hard drive, so his memories would be stored in a humanlike way. So it would be possible for some new input to trigger a lost memory in him the same way that, say, returning to your childhood home could trigger a memory you'd forgotten for 25 years.

You know, it all would be much easier to swallow if all of our away team members hadn't chimed in with the "Dr. Soong is Earth's most famous robotician and trumps Elvis in recognizability in general polls" lines. I mean, the Federation could plausibly have been teeming with roboticians more famous and successful than the single lunatic who babbled about positronics, so that only, say, LaForge would recognize the name.

Indeed. "Datalore" was a script badly in need of another rewrite or two by a more competent showrunner. There's a lot about it that makes little or no sense.

(Really, do we know that "Earth's most prominent robotician" is that famous a person? Perhaps Earth is renown in the Federation for its incompetence in this field, allowing Soong to fade to obscurity except among the immediate community that fondly remembers this eccentric.)

Given how primitive the state of the art of robotics is in the 24th-century Trekverse, that's entirely possible.

 

[The Old Mixer]

^In "Datalore" Wesley tells Lore-posing-as-Data that if he'd used a certain contraction, Wesley would have been suspicious that "Data" was actually Lore.

 

[Christopher]

^^Uhh, yeah, we've already extensively discussed what "Datalore" said on the contraction issue. I meant there was an additional episode after "The Offspring" where the writer made the "Data can't use contractions at all" assumption (which is a misinterpretation of what "Datalore" actually said on the issue).

 

[Timo]

...But at the end of the day, it can still be argued instead that Data merely chooses to speak formally. He doesn't outright claim that he can't (cannot!) use contractions - he merely says he has not mastered the art.

Which would work, if it hadn't been for the fact that, in "Datalore," it was Data himself who told the others that the colonists' records contained references to a Dr. Soong. So clearly he did have access to that information.

Although I suppose it's possible that the files were damaged in some way...

I'd rather believe in a deliberate memory block. Soong would be vain enough to desire recognition at some stage - but he might wish to gain a lead on his supposed pursuers while leaving Omicron Ceti, so he'd block parts of Data's memory for that purpose. And the block might either work correctly, but Data would return to the lab much later than planned; or then the block would be a bit too good, and the originally intended triggers (say, key phrases like "Now, Data, might Dr. Soong have had something to do with your creation?") failed to work.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Christopher]

...But at the end of the day, it can still be argued instead that Data merely chooses to speak formally. He doesn't outright claim that he can't (cannot!) use contractions - he merely says he has not mastered the art.

Yes, we've already reached agreement on that point with regard to "The Offspring." But I'm trying to remember some other episode -- not "Datalore," not "The Offspring" -- where the contraction issue came up. I'm pretty sure there was one.

 

[The Old Mixer]

^^Uhh, yeah, we've already extensively discussed what "Datalore" said on the contraction issue.

Excuse me, we've covered so much that I'd forgotten that the contractions reference in that specific episode had already been discussed.

 

[Red Ranger]

Folks: I believe Riker referenced Data's inability to use contractions in Future Imperfect, where Riker thinks he's awakened 16 years in the future. Data says, "I can't operate," and Riker says, "You used a contraction!" as evidence he wasn't the real Data. -- RR

 

[Timo]

Yeah, I think that's it...

...Although to be sure, Riker already knew this mathematically illiterate "Data" was a fake, and his intention was merely to corner the fake with a vicious verbal attack. He need not literally have believed that the real Data would be incapable of using contractions. He need not even have believed that the real Data would be unlikely to use contractions. After all, this was not the real Data - this was a stuttering and stumbling pretender who could easily be driven to a loss of words, just like all the other fakes around Riker.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Christopher]

^^Either way, Riker's reaction could simply have been to the fact that Data wouldn't have used a contraction in that context, when giving a formal report, rather than in a social situation where he might be attempting greater informality.

 

[Timo]

...Although you can never count on that. Just remember the ending of "Datalore", where Data establishes that it is indeed "I, Leclerc" and not his evil twin - by saying "I'm fine"!

Now, given how the episode had that whole scene about the use of language, this was no doubt intended as a deliberate joke, either by Spiner or by the writer or director. And in the Trek context, it was no doubt intended as a joke by Data. In the Trek context, his coworkers probably didn't get the joke, or didn't find it amusing or annoying enough to warrant a comment in that somber situation. But they might still remember.

I wonder if Data ever pulled off something like that in front of Riker?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[jealousblues]

My favorite example of this sort of thing is in "Justice" when Riker says, "When in Rome," to which Worf replies, "When in where, sir?" That would have worked if Worf had been raised among the Klingons, and we didn't know any better at the time...but I don't think there's any reasonable way that he could have been raised by humans and attended human schools, including the Academy on Earth, and never heard of Rome.

Oh, I think it's particularly appropriate for Worf...

Sure, he might have been raised by humans. But he wasn't raised by Americans - it would appear that for a large part, he was raised by Byelorussians. And they don't use the expression "When in Rome". And whatever American literature Worf was reading, the phrase need not have stuck in his mind from there. Odds are, Worf was mostly reading Klingon propaganda anyway.

Also, when Riker says "Rome", what is our Klingon going to hear? "Romulans? Where? Where? Permission to shoot freely, Sir?" The name of an obscure Earth city would certainly not be his first guess.

Timo Saloniemi

maybe he just didnt hear what he said ;-)

 

[Red Ranger]

My favorite example of this sort of thing is in "Justice" when Riker says, "When in Rome," to which Worf replies, "When in where, sir?" That would have worked if Worf had been raised among the Klingons, and we didn't know any better at the time...but I don't think there's any reasonable way that he could have been raised by humans and attended human schools, including the Academy on Earth, and never heard of Rome.

Oh, I think it's particularly appropriate for Worf...

Sure, he might have been raised by humans. But he wasn't raised by Americans - it would appear that for a large part, he was raised by Byelorussians. And they don't use the expression "When in Rome". And whatever American literature Worf was reading, the phrase need not have stuck in his mind from there. Odds are, Worf was mostly reading Klingon propaganda anyway.

Also, when Riker says "Rome", what is our Klingon going to hear? "Romulans? Where? Where? Permission to shoot freely, Sir?" The name of an obscure Earth city would certainly not be his first guess.

Timo Saloniemi

maybe he just didnt hear what he said ;-)

Slightly off-topic, but I always thought that Worf not knowing many references to human culture, despite being a member of Starfleet, was a bit cliched. He doesn't know who Uncle Sam is -- granted, by the 24th century, it might be quite an obscure reference -- nor does he seem to know about Rome. However, in Q-Pid, he does know who Robin Hood and his Merry Men are when he growls to Picard, "I protest! I am NOT a Merry Man!" -- RR