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So Lindley is this officially a fansite where only adoration is allowed?
Why did Buffy fail?
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Define "massive numbers." If you're talking about an Internet forum, "massive numbers" probably means a couple of dozen people, tops. The Members List of the TrekBBS is currently 5041 entries in length -- which is about 1/1000th the size of Buffy the Vampire Slayer's typical television audience. Those five thousand people have a wide diversity of interests, though, so the total number of posters participating in BTVS threads is probably in the hundreds at most, perhaps only dozens. Any typical thread is unlikely to have more than a few dozen active participants.
Extremist minorities always give the impression of being larger than they are because they make so much noise and drown out alternative points of view. But as a rule, the moderates outnumber the extremists. It's simply illogical to assume that the majority of fans of a given television show share a single extreme position on anything. Human beings just don't work that way. Extreme points of view are more vocal and passionate, drawing more attention, but less numerous than middle-of-the-road points of view.
And for the record, I'm a big fan of Whedon's writing, and I've never in my life used the word "Spuffy" until just now. It's a damn stupid word, like most shipper portmanteaus. Hell, I think shipping in general is pathetic. Basing one's fandom entirely around a single relationship is absurdly narrow-minded.
Don't be ridiculous. And don't try to pretend I said any such thing.
It's one thing to knock the show. It's quite another to knock the fans. Criticize Buffy...Joss...whatever. There's no reason to badmouth the people who happen to like the stuff.
[Godwin] Not even NAZIS!?!?!? [/Godwin]
I was referring to various B/A boards actually. It was impossible to go to any of them and not be a victim of or a witness to various acts of internet thuggery.
I'd say it's larger then that, consider that was who was watching at the end of the shows run. They lost a damn good percentage of their audience when the decided to make Spike the central character of the show. An act even the lead actress and several of the lead writers heavily criticized. So only the most hardcore, die hard, batshit crazy fans were there at the end. And I'll grant you the ones that post on the internet are more vocal then most. But they're simply just saying what most Whedon fans are thinking.
Well, considering the soap-opera was a big selling point of the show, it shouldn't be surprising. The shipper cross board flame wars of that time period makes one want to weep for Western Civilization.
That is untrue. How do I know? Because I was there at the end. If anything, it sounds to me like you're the one who's excessively preoccupied with the Spike issue, and that's coloring your perceptions. I didn't care for the overuse of the Spike character, but that wasn't the only thing going on in the show, and my dislike for that choice wasn't extreme or "hardcore" enough to drive me to stop watching.
There is no possible way you could know that. This is a totally illogical and prejudiced statement.
Or you could just ignore them and walk away. The fact that you're affected by them this intensely demonstrates that you're not really that different from the people you're criticizing; you're just an extremist in the opposite direction. And the problem with extremists is that they assume everyone else is an extremist, which is unpleasant for us moderates who get caught in the middle.
^
Ethros, I think you need to hot-key that picture.
Ethros, I think you need to hot-key that picture.
Uh, I'm not into Buffy or Whedon all the much so can someone tell me what the hell this Spuffy thing is?
It's their term for the Spike-Buffy relationship, which some consider to be nice and some consider to be an abomination, thus leading to the endless battles between the two camps.
A controversial relationship towards the end of the show between Spike and Buffy. It was destructive to both parties. Not in a character assassination way----it was acknowledged in-universe as being bad for both of them, yet it took quite a while for Buffy to finally call it off.
What really sticks in the craw of some people is that unlike the previous relationship with Angel, at the time Spike and Buffy were together he did not have a soul. After the breakup, Spike tried once (unsuccessfully) to rape Buffy. This represented Spike's rock-bottom point, and led directly to his quest to reclaim his soul.
It's definitely not my favorite part of the show, but some people really go overboard with the hatred for that storyline.
What really sticks in the craw of some people is that unlike the previous relationship with Angel, at the time Spike and Buffy were together he did not have a soul. After the breakup, Spike tried once (unsuccessfully) to rape Buffy. This represented Spike's rock-bottom point, and led directly to his quest to reclaim his soul.
It's definitely not my favorite part of the show, but some people really go overboard with the hatred for that storyline.
EDIT: I see Lindley beat me to it, but I attempted to answer sidious' question anyway.
Spuffy is the nickname some fans have given the controversial relationship between Spike, a vampire who used to be Buffy's enemy, and Buffy. It was controversial for a number of reasons:
Spike became infatuated with Buffy in Season 5. In Season 6, Buffy, depressed after her resurrection (which caused her to get pulled out of heaven), started having sex with Spike, even though he, while neutered by a microchip in his brain, was still soulless (unlike her previous vampire boyfriend, Angel, who had his soul restored -- in the Buffyverse, a soul is kind of like a conscience, a moral centre... vampires don't naturally have souls, and thus they're evil, demonic creatures). After Buffy started to deal with being alive again, she ended her twisted relationship with Spike, but he refused to believe that it was really over, and in the process attempted to rape her. Realizing she could never love him as he was, Spike got his soul restored at the end of Season 6. So in the 7th and final season, Spike deals with the ramifications of having a soul once again, and attempts to repair his relationship with Buffy, while she tries to figure out how she feels about him.
It's really rather complicated, and the dark and morally questionable nature of the storyline certainly turned a few people off. Plus, as Lindley mentions, it didn't make Buffy look very good, having sex with someone who is basically a murderer, and one that, unlike Angel, feels no remorse for the things he did. Not my favourite part of the series either, but I don't despise the storyline... certainly not to the extent that some people do.
Spuffy is the nickname some fans have given the controversial relationship between Spike, a vampire who used to be Buffy's enemy, and Buffy. It was controversial for a number of reasons:
Spike became infatuated with Buffy in Season 5. In Season 6, Buffy, depressed after her resurrection (which caused her to get pulled out of heaven), started having sex with Spike, even though he, while neutered by a microchip in his brain, was still soulless (unlike her previous vampire boyfriend, Angel, who had his soul restored -- in the Buffyverse, a soul is kind of like a conscience, a moral centre... vampires don't naturally have souls, and thus they're evil, demonic creatures). After Buffy started to deal with being alive again, she ended her twisted relationship with Spike, but he refused to believe that it was really over, and in the process attempted to rape her. Realizing she could never love him as he was, Spike got his soul restored at the end of Season 6. So in the 7th and final season, Spike deals with the ramifications of having a soul once again, and attempts to repair his relationship with Buffy, while she tries to figure out how she feels about him.
It's really rather complicated, and the dark and morally questionable nature of the storyline certainly turned a few people off. Plus, as Lindley mentions, it didn't make Buffy look very good, having sex with someone who is basically a murderer, and one that, unlike Angel, feels no remorse for the things he did. Not my favourite part of the series either, but I don't despise the storyline... certainly not to the extent that some people do.
If you listen to Marti Noxon, the rape scene was never meant to be a rape scene. She based it on a personal experience wherein she tried to get a boyfriend back by, well, coming on really, REALLY strong. That's the way she wrote the scene. She was surprised when the actors went WAY further than she'd intended, and the final cut was flat-out attempted rape.
Thanks for the answer, guys. I have to say that while I'm not a Whedon fan (especially Buffy as I don't like high school/teenage set stories) it is ballsy that he explored rape in that way and the attempted redemption of the rapist. I'm curious- was he redeemed?
In some people's eyes, yes. In others', impossible and unthinkable.
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