Why Bring Back Rose Tyler?

[Winterwind]

I'm sorry if my avatar is offensive to your girlfriend who once again you've brought up...my avatar taken in that context is indeed objectifying women if you wanna be technical but then again there are probably hundreds of posters who have similar pics of women they admire. No doubt same with the female posters of this BBS. My point in bringing up if you had a woman in your life was obvious and for some reason you are choosing to attack me by tossing it back into my face. I'm glad your girlfriend doesn't find the use of this word offensive. That wasn't my point, the point I was attempting to make...I guess in error that there must be someone who would in your life. I will acknowledge that perhaps I overblew my original intent with my post. At least though I attempted to analyze OmahaStar's post in why he chose use that phrasing concerning Rose. Josan you just keep on posting about my dislike of the word.

Once again, you fail. You made it personal by speculating that because I used the S-word in reference to one women, and a fictional character at that, that I must not have a woman in my life. So, since you crossed that line, yes, I'm going to call you on it. In direct response to you posting your speculations about my personal life, I replied.

As for my bringing her up a second time, that was to do what you think you're doing: Illustrating a point. The difference is I succeeded where you failed. And do you really think she cares about what avatar you, or anyone, uses on a message board. Her comments, and my mention of them, was to further illustrate a point:

Anyone, at any time, can be offended by anything.

So, one last and final time, for the record:

My posting my opinion of one fictional female character does not give you the right to post your speculations about my personal life or relationships.

Calling one individual the S-word, the application of which is subjective, does not a misogynist make. I know people that think that anyone who engages in pre-marital sex is a... what's the word I'm looking for???

Forums have language filters and if the S-word is so offensive to so many, then add it to the filter. But these forums don't so it's assumed that the majority have the maturity to handle the occasional use of certain words.

And lastly, I do find the Sleep With, Be Friends With or Chuck of a Cliff thread to be far more offensive than the term "slut". It's a thread that, if you want to argue it that way, objectifies people as sex objects and (jokingly or not) calls for the murder of others. But I'm not actually complaining about it. I'm only bringing it up to illustrate a point. I know it's in jest and (hopefully) the people posting in it don't actually intend to go out and start tossing people off cliffs.

Thank you for calling. Have a nice day.

Now, let's just hope we never see Rose Tyler again.

Oh crap. That's probably going to offend Rose Tyler fans.

You just can't win...

 

[starsuperion]

I actually think that RTD did well bringing rose back, I live with 2 women, 1 is my lover, the other is a roommate.. and on weekends I get my daughter..

they all are into their own things, however, ever since RTD rebooted Doctor who and I have been watching it, they have intern become huge fans, and mainly because of the likes of Rose, and the emotional RTD character development.. that is not to say that I prefer RTD's style to that of the Moff's style, but it says allot for the bookend that RTD placed on the final epi's since it made the ladies of my house more comfortable and answered their questions of how rose would end up..and if she would ever get the doctor back..

(they aren't familiar with the story of the Doctor so they don't understand most women do not get the doctor at all..)

but for me at least, having rose come back was a god send and really set the ladies of my home up for more doctor who when tennant left, and believe me, the women of my house had become very very attached to david tennant's doctor..

so even though I am an RTD HATER, I still applaud his run on the show, and I am glad he did what he did.. as he brought two women whom do not like such a show into my domain of fandom..

it also led them to become huge fans of torchwood...

so as much as I hate to admit it, I think that bringing rose back and the RTD run in general helped me to have a better experience watching doctor who, as I didn't have to convince the ladies of the house to watch..

 

[Photoman15]

Harlot? (ducks)

Obnoxious; Yes
Slut: No
Should she have been brought back in s4: No
Should she have been in The End of Time: Yes.

When JOURNEY'S END was written, the specials, including END OF TIME weren't as of yet. It wasn't even positive how many specials there were going to be or that the EOT was going to be a 2-parter/2 hours. The specials, for all RTD knew at the time, may have been Companion-less with guest star one-off companions. Rose had to have closure (as I've said before) if not just for the reason that in DOCTOR WHO, Rose represents RTD (and in turn, us the audience). So Rose had to be in JOURNEY'S END. Putting her in the other S4 episodes just set up JOURNEY'S END.

 

[Starkers]

Rose had closure. Doomsday was closure. It may not have been pretty or sweet or slushy closure, but it was closure, and far better closure then her swanning off with 10.5 ever was.

 

[Thestral]

Forums have language filters and if the S-word is so offensive to so many, then add it to the filter. But these forums don't so it's assumed that the majority have the maturity to handle the occasional use of certain words.

Thank you for calling. Have a nice day.

Oy, touchy... and it shouldn't take a filter to use a little bit of decency out of respect for others.

Rose had closure. Doomsday was closure. It may not have been pretty or sweet or slushy closure, but it was closure, and far better closure then her swanning off with 10.5 ever was.

I'm willing to give up Doomsday's closure for the goodness of Turn Left. Journey's End... could have been done better, but was good in concept.

 

[starsuperion]

for the record my daughter is NOT allowed to watch Torchwood....

until she's older..but by then she won't care...


The Doctor:

It's all very calm around here. I thought they'd all be happy-slappy hoodies. Happy-slappy hoodies with ASBOs. Happy-slappy hoodies with ASBOs and ringtones... Oh yeah, don't tell me I don't fit in.

 

[Photoman15]

Rose had closure. Doomsday was closure. It may not have been pretty or sweet or slushy closure, but it was closure, and far better closure then her swanning off with 10.5 ever was.

What closure did she have? I must have missed that. She talked to a hologram who left her hanging on a word....
That is the definition of NON-CLOSURE.

 

[Starkers]

It was closure because it ended her story in connection to the Doctor. She started out a girl without a Father, without any hope of an interesting or worthwhile life--then she met the Doctor, fell in love, but it was a love that could never last, could never be fully expressed, a love that ensured there were only two ways her travels with the Doctor could end, with them being forcibly seperated, or with her dying. Doomsday accomplished the former. She was left permanantly (or so we thought) seperated from the Doctor, but also with a life that had more meaning than the one she's had before he came along, and with the family she'd never had.

Her story was over. Done with. That's closure enough for me, there was nothing left for her to accomplish in connection with the Doctor, because she could never have him in the way she wanted to have him...until RTD decided that she could after all with the worst kind of sappy happy ending that actually feels kinda creepy the more you think about it--but then I guess the same could be said for Pete. I mean he isn't actually her dad.

I'm curious about what you mean by closure though, what would have been good from your perspective? Would the Doctor saying "I love you" really have made that much difference at Bad Wolf Bay?

 

[Sci]

It was closure because it ended her story in connection to the Doctor. She started out a girl without a Father, without any hope of an interesting or worthwhile life--then she met the Doctor, fell in love, but it was a love that could never last, could never be fully expressed, a love that ensured there were only two ways her travels with the Doctor could end, with them being forcibly seperated, or with her dying. Doomsday accomplished the former. She was left permanantly (or so we thought) seperated from the Doctor, but also with a life that had more meaning than the one she's had before he came along, and with the family she'd never had.

Her story was over. Done with. That's closure enough for me, there was nothing left for her to accomplish in connection with the Doctor, because she could never have him in the way she wanted to have him...until RTD decided that she could after all with the worst kind of sappy happy ending that actually feels kinda creepy the more you think about it--but then I guess the same could be said for Pete. I mean he isn't actually her dad.

I'm curious about what you mean by closure though, what would have been good from your perspective? Would the Doctor saying "I love you" really have made that much difference at Bad Wolf Bay?

I think it would have, if only because the arc of the Doctor and Rose developing and then finally admitting their feelings to one-another would be complete.

And I don't really think that Rose being left in the parallel world is closure. That's a story that is arguably finished, but I don't think it's truly closure. Closure requires a catharsis, a resolution of unresolved feelings, and Rose trapped in the parallel world without the Doctor even being able to say how he feels is the very definition of ending things without a resolution of feelings, without a catharsis.

That's why RTD wanted that final scene in Bad Wolf Bay so bad in "Journey's End" -- he wanted a final catharsis to the Rose/Doctor arc. The problem was, I don't think he ever really figured out how to make the catharsis work. (For my money, the catharsis would have worked a lot better in "Journey's End" if the Doctor-clone had been a copy of the Ninth Doctor instead of the Tenth. But that's just me.)

 

[Admiral_Young]

^ I have long suggested this Sci. That I thought the Meta-Crisis Doctor would have worked better had he been played by Chris (I wonder if there was ever any effort to even ask him?) because the Tenth essentially tells Rose that is who he is. "He's me when you first met me." and tells her to "Make him better than he is, like you did with me." Really I found Rose to be like a type of therapy for the Doctor. On some deeper level the Doctor felt connected to her despite the fact when he first arrived to stop the Nestene he had no intention of picking up a new companion whatsoever. He was still in pain and feeling guilty over his traumatic actions in the Time War. Rose helped him to heal a bit I think. That's why the two of them share the connection they do. He helped her change and in term over their time together Rose helped him heal.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

That's why RTD wanted that final scene in Bad Wolf Bay so bad in "Journey's End" -- he wanted a final catharsis to the Rose/Doctor arc. The problem was, I don't think he ever really figured out how to make the catharsis work.

No, he didn't. The Writer's Tale shows us that he didn't; Phil and Julie both tell him that the scene doesn't work, but they don't know what else to do, and he doesn't know where else to go.

There's no logical reason to return to Bad Wolf Bay. Indeed, there's no logical reason to strand Rose there, unless it's for Jackie's sake or because Rose is being punished by the Doctor for some reason. Stranding Rose on Pete's World made sense in "Doomsday"; it would save her life. "Journey's End" had no reason to it at all.

(For that matter, there's absolutely no reason to strand the clone-Doctor there. I realize why the clone-Doctor was left there -- it removes a problematical toy from the table so it doesn't wreck the playground -- but there were other options. Hell, one would have been fun, if you know how David Tennant wanted to appear in Torchwood; drop the clone-Doctor in the past, and let him become the old bearded mad man in Torchwood Glasgow.)

(For my money, the catharsis would have worked a lot better in "Journey's End" if the Doctor-clone had been a copy of the Ninth Doctor instead of the Tenth. But that's just me.)

The dialogue is certainly indicative of that, but Eccleston wouldn't have come back.

That said, giving Rose catharsis was, I think, an unnecessary move because it was so tangential to where the show was. Picking up on a character that had been gone for two years, and then giving her an emotional moment while neglecting the real emotional climax was a poor move on RTD's part.

 

[Photoman15]

^ I have long suggested this Sci. That I thought the Meta-Crisis Doctor would have worked better had he been played by Chris (I wonder if there was ever any effort to even ask him?) because the Tenth essentially tells Rose that is who he is. "He's me when you first met me." and tells her to "Make him better than he is, like you did with me." Really I found Rose to be like a type of therapy for the Doctor. On some deeper level the Doctor felt connected to her despite the fact when he first arrived to stop the Nestene he had no intention of picking up a new companion whatsoever. He was still in pain and feeling guilty over his traumatic actions in the Time War. Rose helped him to heal a bit I think. That's why the two of them share the connection they do. He helped her change and in term over their time together Rose helped him heal.

But the hand he was created from was DT's Doctor. All of CE's Doctor's cells were destroyed in the regen.

 

[Admiral_Young]

^ Yeah...but I think the point was that he was meant to be the Ninth Doctor. Born in fire and yadda yadda yadda.

 

[Sci]

^ I have long suggested this Sci. That I thought the Meta-Crisis Doctor would have worked better had he been played by Chris (I wonder if there was ever any effort to even ask him?) because the Tenth essentially tells Rose that is who he is. "He's me when you first met me." and tells her to "Make him better than he is, like you did with me." Really I found Rose to be like a type of therapy for the Doctor. On some deeper level the Doctor felt connected to her despite the fact when he first arrived to stop the Nestene he had no intention of picking up a new companion whatsoever. He was still in pain and feeling guilty over his traumatic actions in the Time War. Rose helped him to heal a bit I think. That's why the two of them share the connection they do. He helped her change and in term over their time together Rose helped him heal.

But the hand he was created from was DT's Doctor. All of CE's Doctor's cells were destroyed in the regen.

Like the idea of a fully-developed clone with all of the Doctor's memories and personality is any less unrealistic? Just say that the metacrisis regenerative energy caused a backloop in the DNA matrix, or some such nonsense.

 

[Capt_Pickirk]

^ Yeah. Wibbley Wobbley, DNA-ney whay-ney

 

[Photoman15]

^ Yeah...but I think the point was that he was meant to be the Ninth Doctor. Born in fire and yadda yadda yadda.

As was 10.5. Born in the center of the Daleks' control center, as the TARDIS, with Donna was burning up (no shields). Born in battle and fire, doing what 10 couldn't/wouldn't (but 9 may have).

 

[Admiral_Young]

^ That doesn't explain the line where the Doctor tells Rose "He's like me when you first met me." The tenth is clearly referencing the Ninth.

 

[Photoman15]

^ That doesn't explain the line where the Doctor tells Rose "He's like me when you first met me." The tenth is clearly referencing the Ninth.

Again, he didn't say he looks like me when you first met me. He (10.5) just committed genocide (of the Daleks), as had (8 or) 9 to end the Time War, right before (?) meeting Rose. She tempered him (9) and now she can do it again with 10.5

 

[Admiral_Young]

^ You are fighting this for some reason. Never said "look" that in the quote...read the quote again.

 

[Starkers]

That's why RTD wanted that final scene in Bad Wolf Bay so bad in "Journey's End" -- he wanted a final catharsis to the Rose/Doctor arc. The problem was, I don't think he ever really figured out how to make the catharsis work.

No, he didn't. The Writer's Tale shows us that he didn't; Phil and Julie both tell him that the scene doesn't work, but they don't know what else to do, and he doesn't know where else to go.

There's no logical reason to return to Bad Wolf Bay. Indeed, there's no logical reason to strand Rose there, unless it's for Jackie's sake or because Rose is being punished by the Doctor for some reason. Stranding Rose on Pete's World made sense in "Doomsday"; it would save her life. "Journey's End" had no reason to it at all.

(For that matter, there's absolutely no reason to strand the clone-Doctor there. I realize why the clone-Doctor was left there -- it removes a problematical toy from the table so it doesn't wreck the playground -- but there were other options. Hell, one would have been fun, if you know how David Tennant wanted to appear in Torchwood; drop the clone-Doctor in the past, and let him become the old bearded mad man in Torchwood Glasgow.)

(For my money, the catharsis would have worked a lot better in "Journey's End" if the Doctor-clone had been a copy of the Ninth Doctor instead of the Tenth. But that's just me.)

The dialogue is certainly indicative of that, but Eccleston wouldn't have come back.

That said, giving Rose catharsis was, I think, an unnecessary move because it was so tangential to where the show was. Picking up on a character that had been gone for two years, and then giving her an emotional moment while neglecting the real emotional climax was a poor move on RTD's part.

Well put, all having Rose there does is dilute the impact of what happens to Donna in two ways; firstly because it's a distraction, but also because whilst RTD is trying to make us feel sorry for what's happened to Donna, he's showing us that the last time he gave a companion a tragic ending he couldn't help but come back and resolve it so she had a happy ending (in his eyes, more on this later) and lo and behold look what he did!

If RTD had been around in the 80s lets face it he'd have brought Adric back from the dead

I do find RTD's notion of happiness slightly odd, and as I've said above a little bit creepy, and all of them rely on the Doctor or an external force to some extent rather than the character themselves taking a decision.

Rose never had a father, so RTD contrives to give her one. Why deal with not having a parent when one can be foisted on you, doesn't matter that he isn't actually your dad.

Rose loved the Doctor, wanted the Doctor, so RTD contrives to give her her own version of Ten, again it doesn't seem to matter that he isn't actually the man she loves, he looks like him that's enough.

Donna is poor, don't worry though, one quid and a lottery ticket later and that's ok...ignore that fact that money won't neccesarily make Donna happy, because on some level she'll still probably have a nagging feeling she should do more with her life.

Want closure? Closure should have been Rose turning down 10.5. "He's not you, and you know what, even if he was it wouldn't make any difference. I've moved on, I've dealt with how I felt about you, and while I'll never get over you, I know I can live without you, I have to live without you."

As for Donna, wouldn't have been great if when the Doctor asked if she was happy Wilf had said. "Yeah, you know she is. Money's tight but she's happy with whatsisname, got a new job, and she's putting herself through collage, got some mad idea about being a lawyer if you can believe that."

But nah, heaven forbid the character of Donna be allowed to save herself, no the Doctor has to save her.

Many people don't end up with the person they truly love. They deal with it.

Most people aren't rich. They deal with it.

All of us (unless terminally unlucky) will see our parents die, and we never get them back. The vast majority of us deal with it.

Heck even whilst writing this it occurs to me that we can lump Sarah Jane into this. Her life had no meaning without the Doctor to the extent that she never had a family...don't worry love, here's a handy mutant super genius, why not just adopt him

Sorry if I got a bit ranty there