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Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

To say that it hasn't been measured reliably belies the fact that the very existence of telepathy has not been substantiated.

FTL nonsense is still nonsense.
Hmm... I could have sworn I said this:
You did, which, as I said, makes it completely incongruous to try to make the point that "we have not developed any reliable way to measure telepathy."

However, since you seem to think that the two statements go together, with your use of the words definitely [sic - better would be definitively] and reliable, your two statements there sound like you're suggesting that telepathy has some evidential support, but just nothing definite yet. And, it sounds like you're suggesting that support for telepathy would increase, if only it could be measured more reliably.

No. That's wrong. Telepathy doesn't have any support. It has zilch. Nada. It hasn't even been measured at all, whether reliably, unreliably, definitely, indefinitely, definitively, or inconclusively.


Again, your use of the word reliable is entirely redundant. Also, the way you've constructed your assertion in the boldfaced part frankly suggests that there is a realistic possibility that we could someday measure it, or in fact that we already have albeit unreliably, both of which are false.

As for FTL being nonsense... for now, it's called "suspension of disbelief" - something we all do every time we sit down to enjoy a Star Trek episode (or any other show that uses FTL technology). For the future... I think we need to realize that we don't know everything yet. It's not irrational to hope that some day somebody will figure out a way to make it work, or at least discover an alternate way that will achieve the same end results.

Actually, I didn't mean by that that FTL is nonsense. By "FTL nonsense is still nonsense" what I meant was that using FTL as an adjective to modify a noun that represents a form of nonsense still leaves you with nonsense. What was under discussion was "FTL telepathy", in which FTL is an adjective. Although I didn't think I needed to because of the context, I probably could have worded that less ambiguously, say as: "An FTL faerie is still a faerie."

My point was that "FTL telepathy" is still a form of telepathy. "FTL telepathy" isn't somehow more legitimate than telepathy generally. The only reason it isn't less so is because nonsensical nonsense is still just nonsense.

As F.M. Busby said in The Long View (one of my favorite novels from a series that does use relativity as a fundamental part of the plot) when a character does discover FTL: "Einstein wasn't wrong... He just didn't have all the facts."

I'm fairly sure we don't have all the facts, either.
True, we don't have all the facts.

Whether FTL or telepathy might theoretically be discovered someday is an entirely separate question from whether they have any evidential support. They have none. There are some theoretical reasons to suggest that FTL could, hypothetically, be possible, but nothing concrete has yet been demonstrated. Absolutely nothing.

It's also worth pointing out that, given the body of evidence that we have, the discovery of FTL or telepathy are events that realistically have a low probability of occurring.

The fact that we don't have all the facts can't be twisted to support the reality of such fantastic concepts. At best, that ignorance in not having all the facts, which is an essential element of the human condition, only prevents all hope that they could be real from being closed off.
:rolleyes:

Basically: We don't know if telepathy really exists. Since we don't know if it exists, there's no reason why we should have developed a way to measure how fast it works.

We don't have all the facts about how the universe itself works. Maybe we will discover how to make FTL technology happen. I hope we will. But for now, such a technology remains a part of science fiction, and as long as it's applied consistently within whatever setting uses it, I'm content to suspend my disbelief.
 
:rolleyes:

Basically: We don't know if telepathy really exists. Since we don't know if it exists, there's no reason why we should have developed a way to measure how fast it works.

We don't have all the facts about how the universe itself works. Maybe we will discover how to make FTL technology happen. I hope we will. But for now, such a technology remains a part of science fiction, and as long as it's applied consistently within whatever setting uses it, I'm content to suspend my disbelief.

Well, that's not really what I said, since I said that one is probably not wrong to assert that telepathy isn't real, as quoted below.

But if that's your take-away from what I said, so be it.

It's also worth pointing out that, given the body of evidence that we have, the discovery of FTL or telepathy are events that realistically have a low probability of occurring.
 
I see both here, but then if people are accustomed to Roddernberry/Berman Trek, then it makes sense they may not like Abrams Trek.

It's self-evident Paramount reckon Robbernberry/Berman Trek needed revamping, and it makes sense. TNG had high ratings, but then the average Joe is not a Trekkie. So Abrams Trek caters for the widest possible audience. may seem hollow to some, but Paramount, WB, Mirimax, Universal and the other big studios make films for profit primarily, so more sales means more potential profits. ;)

Couldn't agree more. I prefer the Rodeddenberry/Berman Trek. I grew up watching TNG, DS9, VOY & then on to Enterprise. I have to admit the more I've seen of the Abrams films the more I hate them but I can understand why they were made as like you say it appeals to the wider audience.

If this is what it takes to keep Star Trek alive then so be it, but for me it's sad if this is the future of Trek.
 
I see both here, but then if people are accustomed to Roddernberry/Berman Trek, then it makes sense they may not like Abrams Trek.

It's self-evident Paramount reckon Robbernberry/Berman Trek needed revamping, and it makes sense. TNG had high ratings, but then the average Joe is not a Trekkie. So Abrams Trek caters for the widest possible audience. may seem hollow to some, but Paramount, WB, Mirimax, Universal and the other big studios make films for profit primarily, so more sales means more potential profits. ;)

Couldn't agree more. I prefer the Rodeddenberry/Berman Trek. I grew up watching TNG, DS9, VOY & then on to Enterprise. I have to admit the more I've seen of the Abrams films the more I hate them but I can understand why they were made as like you say it appeals to the wider audience.

If this is what it takes to keep Star Trek alive then so be it, but for me it's sad if this is the future of the Trek.
So, 'Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World' is the best Trek film?
 
I have to admit the more I've seen of the Abrams films the more I hate them but I can understand why they were made as like you say it appeals to the wider audience.

There are actually a number of different ways to appeal to a wider audience. The NuTrek films are really pretty cynical about mining nostalgia (for the property and for old-timey pulp SF) often at the direct expense of storytelling and believability. There were SF films made in both 2009 (Avatar) and 2013 (Gravity) that did not go this route and yet out-grossed the NuTrek films. Ergo the notion that some people have developed that this was necessarily the only way to update Trek is questionable.
 
^ Not quite, because Insurrection was not 'Dances With Wolves,' and we all know that Avatar was basically 'Dances With Wolves.' ;)

But really, the reason Avatar worked was that it embraced its identity as science fiction. With the handwaving about "unobtainium" aside (your typical SF story usually allows itself one or two piece of handwaving) everything about the planet's biology and visual design and even the Na'Vi is built to fit together logically and non-magically -- right down to flying wildlife whose design takes advantage of a denser atmosphere and lower gravity -- as well as to be relatable to some contemporary reality of the audience (hence the analogy between Pandora's biological network and a computer network). That's what made the setting so convincing and immersive that some audience members experienced depression on having to confront its intangibility.
 
I have to admit the more I've seen of the Abrams films the more I hate them but I can understand why they were made as like you say it appeals to the wider audience.

There are actually a number of different ways to appeal to a wider audience. The NuTrek films are really pretty cynical about mining nostalgia (for the property and for old-timey pulp SF) often at the direct expense of storytelling and believability. There were SF films made in both 2009 (Avatar) and 2013 (Gravity) that did not go this route and yet out-grossed the NuTrek films. Ergo the notion that some people have developed that this was necessarily the only way to update Trek is questionable.

I personally think a new series should be the way forward for Star Trek. Enterprise ended 9 years ago & the NuTrek films in my opinion aren't any good.
 
I personally think a new series should be the way forward for Star Trek. Enterprise ended 9 years ago & the NuTrek films in my opinion aren't any good.

Hard to speculate on what's likely in any practical sense in the Trek franchise. It depends on what the next new film does. My own preference would be for an animated series, but the basic state of play right now appears to be that CBS isn't interested in returning it to television.
 
A Trek film based on 'The Far Side of the World' would -- or could -- actually be pretty great.
 
To answer the OP.

I don't "hate" (such a strong word!), but I have no particular desire to watch VOY or ENT again because I find both the characters and stories a little dull. So I stay out of the forums.

I don't "hate" Abrams Trek, but I have no particular desire to see those again as they are just "popcorn flicks". So again, I stay out of those forums.

I don't understand anyone that would want to flame in the Voyager or Enterprise forums, those shows are long dead and nothing can be changed. But - I do understand why people get angry in the JJ forums. They do so because they believe they can change things by doing so. Personally I have plenty of other things going on in my life and I always have hours of TOS TNG and DS9 to watch again should I wish. But I can at least understand WHY people do it in that particular forum.
 
Well, even if you love something dearly like we all agree we love Star Trek...that doesn't mean you don't want to pick it apart a bit once in a while. I don't have anywhere to go to if I maybe want to dissect an episode or a film a little bit further than normal discussion with people in my life would allow. Besides, if we didn't nitpick or criticize anything, what would we talk about 99% of the time? I think it's a given that anyone posting a lot on these boards already is a Trek fan, so rehashing that fact won't really provide any kind of stimulating discussion, I think.
 
Two things: First - people on the internet love to complain.

Second - Many longterm Trek fans who grew up with series x or series y tend to view that series as "their" Trek. It's theirs, and they take personal ownership of it. And from that point onward, through the other series and movies, they cast a keen eye on ways that these other Treks stray from what it was about "their" Trek that they loved so much. Take, for example, the "old-timers" or TOS fans. For them, Trek stopped either at the end of the third season of TOS, or if they're feeling generous, the animated series (because it contained many of the same creative team and actors as TOS).

And every Trek series has fans like this, and boy, are they ever vocal.

At the root of it, it's the difference between a fan's expectations of what a Trek series or movie would look like, and what the studios have produced. The greater those vary, the more complaining you hear. It's not a hate of Trek. It's a love of the "idea" of Trek that the fan has built in his/her mind.

I hope that helps.
Excellent analysis counselor!

Personally, I don't hate any Star Trek. I just have different levels of disdain. :devil:

- DS9's Profit and Lace: Embarrassed "Who approved this anti-woman crap?"
- VOY's Fury: Angry. "They ruined Kes! What were they thinking?"
- ENT's TATV: Bewildered. "What was the... point of Trip's crappy death in this story? I don't get it...
- JJ's movies: Annoyed. This is Star Wars!!! Where's my Trek movie dammit? I'd rather watch Galaxy Quest, a much better Star Trek tribute.

Doesn't mean I hate them and will never ever watch them again! (although Profit and Lace is painful)
 
Every fandom has fans who are resentful of the new material in favor of the "good old days." In some cases, it's considered normal fare to hate new product when it's first aired and released and continue hating it until five years has passed, then it gets re-watched and decided it's not as bad as everyone made it out to be and hella lot better than the current crap being churned out.

It's just a thing. Everyone has their things.

No kidding. If the OP thinks Trek fans are bad,he should go on over to MMORPG.COM and look at all the posters who hate the current MMOs. That place is a rolling cesspool of hate.
 
I could be convinced FTL exists a lot more easily than I could be convinced telepathy exists.
"Faster than light" is about as realistic as "slower than stopped."

I agree. But for FTL to be possible our current understanding of the universe would have to be wrong. For telepathy to exist our thoughts would have to create magic particles that other minds could pick up with identical understanding. That or 'Time, space and thought are not separate things' and Wesley is Neo.

A general rule of the Internet is, if you think people are hateful on the forum you're posting on, there are other forums that are far worse. Like, I've been to a craft beer forum where Budweiser gets hated on with the vitriol of five TATVs combined.
 
I don't hate Star Trek. I wouldn't own all the various shows and movies on DVD if I did, now, would I?

There are some episodes I don't like, and some which just don't work at all, but I feel there's enough good in the ST saga to outweigh the bad. I am grateful to the JJ Abrams movies for reigniting the public interest in Star Trek. Do I have some issues with them? Yes, but I still enjoy them. Just like there were problems with Berman era Trek. I enjoy Voyager and Enterprise for what they are, despite the well-documented flaws.
 
- JJ's movies: Annoyed. This is Star Wars!!! Where's my Trek movie dammit? I'd rather watch Galaxy Quest, a much better Star Trek tribute.

Well said! :)

I'd say rather than being Star Wars they are more like comic books.

That is, comic books that throw out 40 years of continuity....

Fans love to complain. The best is when they complain about what they perceive to be in the show's creators' minds - they complain about it as if they KNOW FOR SURE and they disagree.

It's a bit like going to a hockey game. 90% of the fans in the arena think they can do a better job than the coach. Good luck with that.

-Jason
 
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