Why are the ranks so top heavy?

[Timo]

Heh. Klingons have no problem using both General and Admiral, the former being nicely applicable for fleet command...

In terms of headcanon, we only saw Guard personnel up close in ENT. Regular Andorian navy folks might use ranks the UT renders as naval ones.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[The Wormhole]

We've seen exactly one Klingon Admiral on screen in Star Trek, and that was in an episode written by writers with a background in Trek novels (of which more Klingon Admirals were featured). Not the best precedent to build an argument.

 

[Timo]

How so? We only ever heard of a single Andorian General.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[The Wormhole]

And no non-Starfleet Andorian Admirals.

 

[Timo]

But Andorians, like everybody else, believed in mixing, with Captains in charge of ships, just like Klingons had Commanders to go with their Generals, and Romulans had Colonels bossing around Admirals.

We never quite learned what the setup with the Klingons or the Andorians was. With the Romulans, it was the Tal'Shiar that believed in army-style ranks, though. With the Andorians, it could be the Imperial Guard. Certainly it would take more speculation to insist that Andorians don't have Admirals than to claim that they do, considering the broad interstellar precedent.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[XCV330]

We've seen exactly one Klingon Admiral on screen in Star Trek, and that was in an episode written by writers with a background in Trek novels (of which more Klingon Admirals were featured). Not the best precedent to build an argument.

Jsut a matter of names. Someone is at the top. The US Navy (and the older US Revenue Cutter Service, the modern Coast Guard) did not have any admirals at all until around the time of the Civil War. They'd resisted the idea for decades thinking the term smacked of the kind of aristocratic patronage the hoped to avoid in their newfound fleets. Commodire was their top rank instead, but essentially was Admiral in all but name as the navy grew to the point that it needed one.

Curiously in the mid 20st century, the rank of commodore was removed instead, and I think remaining commodores got "bumped up" to rear admiral.

 

[The Wormhole]

But Andorians, like everybody else, believed in mixing, with Captains in charge of ships,

There are no Andorian Captains. Their ships are commanded by Commanders.

Curiously in the mid 20st century, the rank of commodore was removed instead, and I think remaining commodores got "bumped up" to rear admiral.

In the US Navy, the Commodore rank was renamed Rear Admiral, Lower Half.

 

[X24actor]

Rank equals experience and the bosses assign whoever they deem fit. If the boss tells a Lt. Cmdr. to command a starship, that Lt. Cmdr. is now in command of that starship. I think Captains claim more ownership of their starships. I bet starship Captains have been caught stroking the bulkheads.

 

[Timo]

There are no Andorian Captains. Their ships are commanded by Commanders.

Except in "Cease Fire", where a Captain quite explicitly commands a ship. Might be a more important ship or something.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Except in "Cease Fire", where a Captain quite explicitly commands a ship. Might be a more important ship or something.

Timo Saloniemi

Given that Captain Telev was the spokesperson for a three-strong flight of Andorian cruisers then it's seems plausible that 'Captain' is the Andorian term for a "(nautical) A (temporary) commander over a collection of ships who is not an admiral." often refered to as a Commodore (as opposed to the UE rank of the same name, which appears to be a junior flag officer).

 

[Timo]

In any case, all Andorian ranks so far have been "classic" Earth ranks of US or English derivation, both army and navy styles being represented there.

The same is true of all Klingon ranks, which include the naval Commander and Admiral in addition to the ambiguous Lieutenant and semi-ambiguous Captain and a bunch of army ranks.

The same is true of most Romulan ranks, with the addition of the Subcommander and Sublieutenant and the Centurion.

If the UT bothers to translate these ranks at all, I doubt it would resort to translations that differ from the Earth usage. If the Andorians have a Commodore, then the UT says Commodore! (Yet if the Ferengi have a Captain/CEO hybrid, the UT reverts to the native designation for this wholly alien rank.)

But Captain there is subject to interpretation more than the others, as it's a position name on Earth just as much as it is a rank name. Perhaps Captain Telev held the rank of Commander or Commodore? Or of Lieutenant Colonel or Brigadier, or whatever?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Jedman67]

It's fair to assume that alien ranks have been mostly translated to english for the audiences benefit, much like their languages themselves.
A reason for changing up the rank structure slightly with the aliens would be so that the audience is subtly reminded that it's a different culture that does things in a different way.
I have no idea where "Gul" comes from, but I imagine it to be a rank that's used for both military and civilian.
It's supposed to highlight to the viewers that Cardassia is a heavily militaristic society; even the civilian sector is ultimately for the benefit of it's military industry.

Romulans, on the other hand are a "democratic" society with elected representatives and the like, but also heavily classed and segregated population. I would infer that you cannot become a citizen unless you've proved your loyalty to the state; or come from an upper-class family, or something like that. The secret police has eyes and ears everywhere, and they do not need to second guess someones loyalty.
The rank structure reflects that quite specifically - it's extremely rigid. Lt. Commander becomes sub-commander. You are NOT a commander and don't you dare think of yourself as one. Same for sub-lieutenant. (although in some cases, sub-commander is used to mean "senior" commander (O-6, equivalent to Captain); ranking higher than a "commander" (O-5).)

 

[Vger23]

Well...it's a little less top heavy now.

 

[XCV330]

Well...it's a little less top heavy now.

We haven't even had the respectful two weeks before the crew can borrow SPOILER's charging cable and turn his or her memory wiper into a hat rack. Shame!

 

[The Wormhole]

Well...it's a little less top heavy now.

They may have lost a Lt. Commander, but they gained an Admiral, so still top heavy. Maybe even topper heavier.

 

[Vger23]

They may have lost a Lt. Commander, but they gained an Admiral, so still top heavy. Maybe even topper heavier.

 

[The Wormhole]

You are batting 1000 with the memes, I'll give you that.

 

[Noname Given]

And you're not getting ME. I'm saying because they're already there, because they HAVE to be at least in the geography of the main action, at least physically adjacent to the major characters, why NOT take the time to make them interesting?

It's just dumb not to. Again, the analogy is that if there was a guy who sat literally next to Peralta in every single briefing room scene, you'd be like, "What this guy's deal? Why is he there for no reason?"

Becaue the point is to ADVANCE THE STORY and ADVANCE THE MAIN CHARACTER ARCS. The other characters are just there to support that aspect as needed. They also don't have as many episodes as other non-streaming shows do to spend time on ancillary characters and secondary plots.

Example: While I'm not a big fan of Saru, he's a main character and even he only got one episode this season to advance part of his main character arc. they are limited WRT time and have to carefully decide what they want/need to spend time on to tell their story.

 

[Timo]

A reason for changing up the rank structure slightly with the aliens would be so that the audience is subtly reminded that it's a different culture that does things in a different way.

...Or at least writer brain farts can be construed as such.

I have no idea where "Gul" comes from, but I imagine it to be a rank that's used for both military and civilian.

Indeed, "Legate" seems to merge the political and the military quite explicitly, so "Gul" and "Glinn" can well be assumed to do that, too. I imagine it's 50% that and 50% the odd division of power between the CC/Detapa/OO triumvirate.

The rank structure reflects that quite specifically - it's extremely rigid. Lt. Commander becomes sub-commander. You are NOT a commander and don't you dare think of yourself as one. Same for sub-lieutenant. (although in some cases, sub-commander is used to mean "senior" commander (O-6, equivalent to Captain); ranking higher than a "commander" (O-5).)

Cool interpretation.

Then again, perhaps a sub-Commander is the commander of a sub, sometimes generically called Commander? The U-boot is the direct analogy to the cloaked fighting vessel, after all.

T'Pol's Vulcan rank of Subcommander superseded Trip's Starfleet rank of Commander, interestingly enough. Only because Vulcan rank always trumps Starfleet rank, at least within certain limits? Or because there's a table the two can check to find out how the two systems mesh exactly?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Jedman67]

DS9 went to extraordinary lengths to develop enough backgrounds on the alien cultures that guest writers would easily be able to fill in the blanks. Of course, "brain farts" can explain a number of really terrible episodes that appeared on all shows, so go figure

So I'm translating here; in the Romulan rank structure as far as I recall; Commanders were always senior to Sub Commanders (except in that one episode where they reversed it). So I interpret "sub" as "junior." [Memory Alpha agrees with me; Romulan Commanders are equivalent to Captains, Sub Commanders are equivalent to Starfleet Cmdr, etc]