Why are the "enlightened/evolved" humans so interested in violence?

[Anwar]

Re: Why are the "enlightened/evolved" humans so interested in violence

They do use money, but not on Earth. TNG episodes show them buying things, using Federation credits.

Picard said the stuff he did because he had the more pressing Borg infestation to deal with, so he didn't really have the luxury of explaining things better.

 

[T'Girl]

Re: Why are the "enlightened/evolved" humans so interested in violence

Then why did Jake say it too? Jake had no such grievances with anybody, and he had a job as a reporter for the Federation News Service, so why did Jake give almost the exact same speech to Nog in In the Cards.

The real-world reason is simple: Ron Moore was making fun of the fact that he had no idea how the Federation's economy works when he co-wrote First Contact

I didn't mean to suggest that Picard's beliefs were unique, simply not pervasive. Different people can embrace a particular philosophy for a wide number of reasons, I believe that Jake holds to a philosophical/financial model for the simple reason that his father expounds it.

In Jake's avocation of the philosophy to Nog, it's made very obvious that he (like Roddenberry) has no in-universe idea how it works.

They do use money, but not on Earth. TNG episodes show them buying things, using Federation credits.

That would mean that credits are money.

 

[scotpens]

Re: Why are the "enlightened/evolved" humans so interested in violence

Few — if any — educated/civilized people of today enjoy being entertained by watching slavery in action (though there are plenty who can't seem to get enough gratuitous violence on TV/the movies).

Oh, I don't know about that -- it seems there are quite a few people who like to watch whippings! (In fiction, of course.)

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Re: Why are the "enlightened/evolved" humans so interested in violence

In the federation, a citizen can live a comfortable/wealthy life without having to work a day in his life - courtesy of fusion generators and replicators.
The society is so wealthy, it can afford this.

On the other hand, as is esteblished, the federation uses federation credits - electronic money - to pay starfleet personnel and other working people.
Of course, these credits are not a necessity for a wealthy life. The main motivation for having a job is because you like that job, you work to 'better yourself'.
Plus, when it comes to specific types of goods, scarcity still exists - beach property, art objects, etc, etc. And this is where credits come in handy.


In 'first contact', Picard obviously answered an irrelevant question from Lilly with an oversimplified, schematic answer. There was no time for serious economic theories.

Apropos 'bettering yourself' - this sentence is obviously written in some primary school economic manual who teaches children a simplified version of federation economics (which is why Jake and even Nog knew about it).
As for Jake not knowing how to explain it - apparently, he sucked at economics; he knew nothing about them beyong primary school generalities.

 

[Destructor]

Re: Why are the "enlightened/evolved" humans so interested in violence

TNG episodes show them buying things, using Federation credits.

Source?

Nothing in TNG completely negates the idea that they had credits (indeed, as this thread illuminates, it's hard for us to imagine that they didn't), but there's nothing onscreen to indicate that they DID, either. Admittedly, we see very little of the Federation's citizenry, but when we do we never see them using money- for all we know Grandpa Sisko did charge his customers, and for all we know he didn't. It's just easier for us to visualize that he did because that is the society we live in. It's difficult for us to imagine a society where people don't get charged for food and service, until we imagine a world where scarcity does not exist. The replicator, if it was invented, would change everything. You would not need to pay for food, you would 'copy' it.

The internet is actually a good precursor to how this society would function. Lots of people contribute content to the internet for no material gain- the majority of the internet is user-contributed. Now, obviously at the moment there is a lot of fuss over IP rights, because the internet is composed of making copies. At some point in the near future we will all be obliged to pay a flat fee that pays for all our copying rights, so that anyone can make a copy of anything.

Now imagine this with physical items. Any body of mass can be broken down into pure energy and reassembled into something else of equal or lesser mass. No more hunger. No more scarcity. Why WOULD anyone pay for food when it was free? Everything would change. The value of money is based on scarcity. There would be no scarcity. Money would become valueless.

It's difficult for us to imagine what would happen after this, which is why Star Trek is intentionally vague about it. But it's actually quite clever of them to acknowledge that this major transition has occurred. Just because we are too limited to imagine what shape this new world would take does not mean we should deny that it is a canon fact in that Star Trek universe.

 

[T'Girl]

Re: Why are the "enlightened/evolved" humans so interested in violence

Nothing in TNG completely negates the idea that they had credits [snip] but there's nothing onscreen to indicate that they DID,

In The Trouble with Tribbles, Uhura very obviously negotiates a price in credits for a Tribble, you remember anything like physical money trading hands? No? But in the context of the story Uhura did at some point pay. Value was exchanged.

At one point in TNG, the Federation (and others) were bidding for a (un)stable wormhole. The bids did not take the form of credits, but items of value and worth would be exchanged. Material resources, technology transfers, access to scientists and something called trillium 323. Not all money is currency.

]The replicator, if it was invented, would change everything. You would not need to pay ...

How do you get from the existence of the replicators ... all the way over to ... no one pay for anything? Just wondering. You compare the replicator to the internet, I pay for my internet access through Seattle/comcast. The computer itself cost me just under a eight hundred down at Costco. When I order something online (let's say clothes) I pay for them using my paypal (no currency).

So Destructor, your future replicator, you have to purchase it and pay to operate it (power, supplies, repairs (Quark's would break down)).

I'm sure there would be free clothing patterns availible through the replicator, but if you want some cute designer pattern ... you pay. You yourself mentioned IP. As shown on the show, replicators take a fair amount of power, it might be cheaper for you to simply purchase some grown in the ground food instead. Robert Picard didn't eat food from a replicator, so we know "real" food still exists. Joseph Sisko's restaurant served "real" food so we know it still exists. Who know, it might be cheaper to eat in Sisko restaurant than use your home replicator. Why eat "facsimile" food when you can get the real thing?

Even Jean-Luc Picard never came right out and stated that things are free. Picard to Lily in FC seem to imply that there was still a economy in the 24th century. Everything being free would mean no economy.

The value of money is based on scarcity.

Wrong. Actually money is based upon exchanging one item of value for another. Money does not have to be currency.

I almost never use physical money anymore.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: Why are the "enlightened/evolved" humans so interested in violence

In The Trouble with Tribbles, Uhura very obviously negotiates a price in credits for a Tribble, you remember anything like physical money trading hands? No? But in the context of the story Uhura did at some point pay. Value was exchanged.

There was a credit system in TOS, but that's because TOS was made before some of Gene's... more idealistic concepts. Gene changed a lot between making TOS and TNG, and when he created TNG he felt it was an opportunity to put across some of the ideas that he thought would make a perfect world. One of his concepts was that there would be no currency. Plenty of TNG writers have complained about the rules imposed by Roddenberry and how they had to invent ways to get around them, the currency issue was another thing that divided the staff but which they ultimately had to live with.

As I've said before, nobody knows how the Federation economy works. Does the existence of replicators and anti-matter reactors mean that everything is "free", that if you want something you just program it in the the replicator? Perhaps the Federation assigns a value to the process of "bettering" oneself and they send inspectors out once a year to make sure you're not wasting your time in the holodeck all day. If you are then your energy supply is cut to a subsistence level until you do something for the good of society, even if it is something "worthless" like learning to paint.

Nobody knows for sure, Gene didn't know, but Gene also didn't know how transporters worked. It was just something that he thought would be good so he threw it in there, and now we get to argue about it on the internet.

EDIT: Actually, Voyager did show a possible currency system based on energy when they introduced replicator rationing. That was an extreme circumstance due to Voyager being trapped on the other side of the galaxy with limited resources, and it was never suggested that that form of currency system was in use anywhere else in the UFP.

 

[T'Girl]

Re: Why are the "enlightened/evolved" humans so interested in violence

Perhaps the Federation assigns a value to the process of "bettering" oneself and they send inspectors out once a year to make sure you're not wasting your time in the holodeck all day.

Interesting idea. Sounds a little George Orwell though.

 

[Anwar]

Re: Why are the "enlightened/evolved" humans so interested in violence

With technologies and luxuries like that available to everyone, you'd HAVE to be a tad Orwellian to keep Humanity from becoming couch potatoes...

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: Why are the "enlightened/evolved" humans so interested in violence

Interesting idea. Sounds a little George Orwell though.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of the concept myself, but when I think about it, that is similar to the way the social welfare system works: If you need unemployment benefit you need to prove that you've looked for work, had interviews, not turned any offers down... things like that. If you can't prove it then you lose the benefit and you starve. If human society is really about bettering yourself then they may just implement such a system.

To be honest, the Federation suffers from a lack of definition, the shows were so focused on exploring alien societies that they rarely addressed the Federation at all. I've seen people making a case in the past that the Federation is a military dictatorship, and while that is clearly not the intent of the show, it does seem that way at times. The Federation Council in TVH was filled with Starfleet officers, admirals are the ones sent to sign treaties with alien races, and when have we ever seen an election? In 14 years and 21 seasons in the TNGverse we never heard anyone talk about voting.

 

[JarodRussell]

Re: Why are the "enlightened/evolved" humans so interested in violence

It's simple. One has to go back to the roots and ask why is currency even needed? It's because of a need of compensation. Because production requires energy, and because people have developed the idea that they MUST be paid for their work (since they MUST pay for food and clothing and stuff, it's a vicious cycle).

In Star Trek's utopic society, they have unlimited energy resources (for instance highly efficient solar panels, and I guess every home has one and kinda every household produces more energy then they need). And then they have replicators, which - for a certain amount of energy - can replicate anything, from a T-Bone steak to a violin to complex machinery.

And if a civilization reached that level of technology, it's not a far step to change the idea that one MUST be compensated for work. When you don't have to work anymore to feed yourself and your family, you gain a more relaxed look at things. And then you start working because you WANT to work. And then you work to better yourself, and the rest of humanity.

Some items cannot be replicated. Dilithium crystals. Latinum. But other cultures outside the Federation have currency, and for instance a Dilithium crystal is worth 100 blocks of latinum, and for 100 blocks of latinum your get 10000 steaks. And the energy needed to replicate 10000 steaks can be converted to currency.

You are still limited, since you have energy packages (or credits), but you produce them without having to work, with your own highly efficient solar panels and wind energy and whatnot.

Don't forget that they live in a fictional world where technology has virtually no limits.

 

[jojolimited]

Re: Why are the "enlightened/evolved" humans so interested in violence

At least in DS9 it is clear that capitalism is going on in one form or another. In the scope of things, that's all I care about. TNG and Voyager can have their own rules.

 

[T'Girl]

Re: Why are the "enlightened/evolved" humans so interested in violence

To be honest, the Federation suffers from a lack of definition

Part of that is Starfleet looking outwards, not looking backwards.

Still, with all the politcs in DS9, you would think more about the structure of the federation would be presented.

 

[Destructor]

Re: Why are the "enlightened/evolved" humans so interested in violence

At least in DS9 it is clear that capitalism is going on in one form or another. In the scope of things, that's all I care about. TNG and Voyager can have their own rules.

But the capitalism in DS9 revolves around Quark and Ferengi society. The Federation officers may be forced to deal with it to get stuff done, but they don't have an internal economy.

 

[T'Girl]

Re: Why are the "enlightened/evolved" humans so interested in violence

they don't have an internal economy.

Yanas Tigan, Ezri Dax's mother, owns (as in property) a pergium mining company on the Federation planet of New Sydney. She discouraged her son from being a artist, so he could truly better himself by getting a job with her company. (prodigal daughter)

Once "years ago," while Janeway and Tuvok were shopping in a market, they bought a meditation lamp from a Vulcan merchant, when he saw their Starfleet insignia he doubled the price. (the gift)

While in the Earth system, Quark sold his damage ship for scrap. (little green men)

Somewhere in the Federation is the planet Dytallix B, the entire planet is owned (as in property) by the Dytallix mining corporation. (conspiracy)

In Star Trek's utopic society, they have unlimited energy resources

This fact is from which episodes please?

 

[Melete]

Re: Why are the "enlightened/evolved" humans so interested in violence

Capitalism is not a political system, it is a monetary system and very much exists in the Trek universe.

I have to disagree. Capitalism (as in: economics based on markets) is an economical system. And those are quite a subject of politics.

About being/behaving evolved:

The bipolar ape

I don't think that a mere 400 years will change humans biological determined nature enough to "sanitize" our psychological profile.

But we can emancipate ourselves from it by learning to control it. Like we did before.

 

[Myasishchev]

Re: Why are the "enlightened/evolved" humans so interested in violence

Definitely the former, since a) we've been told over and over that genetic engineering is forbidden in the Federation, and b) none of the Human characters seem to be particularly different from real life modern day humans, they certainly do have violent impulses, they fight, they hate...

One caveat: you can change the physical makeup of a human being, even without genetic manipulation, when control over every molecule in a human body is trivially accomplished. Transporters would solve the toxoplasma gondii problem, for example, as well as all of the other mind-affecting parasites we do and don't know about. Indeed, all human flora could be eliminated, given their technology, although I'd reckon a gradualist approach would be taken, since much of it is useful.

It's impossible to say, of course, how--and critically, how much--removing, say, t. gondii from the 50-80% of the population infected with it would actually affect human behavior, but it's fun to speculate.

I very much doubt that they were "holodecking" on the side Santa Anna or Hitler, even though in the case of Santa Anna that would have made Bashir and O'Brian the victors.

If they're at all like normal gamers, they definitely played both sides, if for no other reason than to fly new planes.

Also, I would not characterize the effort of immigrant slavers to turn half of Mexico into a forced-labor plantation as particularly freedom-loving in its complexion. I would suppose it's more the strategic challenge of defending against an overwhelming enemy than any ideological sympathy, just like how most people prefer to play Germany or Japan in WW2 games.

 

[Destructor]

Re: Why are the "enlightened/evolved" humans so interested in violence

they don't have an internal economy.

Yanas Tigan, Ezri Dax's mother, owns (as in property) a pergium mining company on the Federation planet of New Sydney. She discouraged her son from being a artist, so he could truly better himself by getting a job with her company.

Nope- New Sydney was an independent world.

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/New_Sydney

 

[JarodRussell]

Re: Why are the "enlightened/evolved" humans so interested in violence

In Star Trek's utopic society, they have unlimited energy resources

This fact is from which episodes please?

From all of them. You can't mass produce antimatter and have artificial gravity and do all the stuff they do without having an extraordinary amount of energy available and highly efficient ways of using it.

 

[jojolimited]

Re: Why are the "enlightened/evolved" humans so interested in violence

Capitalism is not a political system, it is a monetary system and very much exists in the Trek universe.

I have to disagree. Capitalism (as in: economics based on markets) is an economical system. And those are quite a subject of politics.

About being/behaving evolved:

The bipolar ape

I don't think that a mere 400 years will change humans biological determined nature enough to "sanitize" our psychological profile.

But we can emancipate ourselves from it by learning to control it. Like we did before.

You're right, I should have said part of an economic system. But at it's heart, capitalism is about making a profit. Some will make more than others. In a Trek universe I wouldn't want capitalism dead, just more equitable. I wouldn't want on oppressive socialist system like in Canada or Europe either. And especially not like modern China.