Why Angel?

[indranee]

So I'm re-watching Buffy and Angel (concurrently, btw)... it's been a while since I saw them both and I'm, yet again, surprised at how good they both were.

So the question stands: why Angel? Why did Whedon give David Boreanaz -- not the best actor on the west coast -- his own show? Why did he take Angel (the character) off of BtVS and separate the two characters (granted, the fork in the road was a natural progression for them, still the chemistry was explosive and, as a writer, I would not want to give up on writing for them together), and why... well, why another show with pretty much the same theme as BtVS?

Anyone have any input on this?

 

[Switch]

In the Angel box set I have here Whedon writes that Angel was a 'larger than life' character able to support his own show. Which is fair enough.

I don't think the series are exactly interchangeable. Angel is darker - and not just wrt the colour palette - more nuanced, and pitched at a more adult level. Which isn't to say it's better than Buffy, because it isn't.

 

[Snaploud]

I remember when Buffy, Angel, and Firefly were on tv at the same time. The guy was stretching himself way too thin.

 

[cultcross]

At the time, there weren't really any other characters with the backstory and 'interest' factor to support their own show. Possibly Giles, but that would be less of a surefire fan draw and he was more pivotal to Buffy - Angel had kind of worn out his storyline on his parent show. Both the Angel character and the Buffy show were the better for their separation, imho.

Oh, and as it's normal practice here to class the Buffyverse as SF/F, thread on its way over there...

 

[DevilEyes]

So I'm re-watching Buffy and Angel (concurrently, btw)... it's been a while since I saw them both and I'm, yet again, surprised at how good they both were.

So the question stands: why Angel? Why did Whedon give David Boreanaz -- not the best actor on the west coast -- his own show? Why did he take Angel (the character) off of BtVS and separate the two characters (granted, the fork in the road was a natural progression for them, still the chemistry was explosive and, as a writer, I would not want to give up on writing for them together), and why... well, why another show with pretty much the same theme as BtVS?

Anyone have any input on this?

Explosive chemistry? I used to love Bangel back in the day (during seasons 1-3), with it being such an epic romance and all, but even then I noticed that they didn't have the greatest chemistry in the world. It was OK as long as they were making out or when they were in a huge dramatic scene - but just having a conversation... awkward. There were moments when I almost expected her to get bored with the big brooding plank of wood every moment, and him to get annoyed with the tiny fiery brat. It didn't help that David Boreanaz's acting wasn't the greatest back then (he got so much better later on AtS). But in season 1 of AtS, when he was getting better, the chemistry between him and Buffy when she would guest star, felt so forced. This is one of the reasons why "I Will Remember You" fell flat for me, as soon as they had to play a normal couple instead of epic doom, the sparks weren't there. I thought Angel had much more chemistry with Kate (even if nothing came out of it), and Cordelia, and most of all Darla. Buffy only had great explosive chemistry with Spike. I remember thinking during season 2 "How odd is it that she has more sparks with the guy trying to kill her than with her boyfriend?" (And that was when I wasn't expecting anything to ever come out of it.)

As to why Whedon picked DB to star in his own show... From what I've read, he liked DB's performance in "Amends" and thought he had developed as an actor and could carry his own show.

But I think the actual reasons why him are the following:

Angel wasn't an integral part of the Scooby gang. Willow, Xander and Giles are, and they belong to BtVS. Cordelia also wasn't integral, so she transferred to AtS as well. Angel was primarily Buffy's love interest, and as soon as their relationship ended, there was no reason for him to stick around. And you just had to end the B/A relationship because it had run its course, there was simply nothing more to do with it without destroying the whole "epic doomed romance" aspect that people loved it for in the first place. So either they had to try to somehow turn it into a normal relationship, or end it.

On the other hand, he was quite an interesting character himself, with a rich history, and could be developed in much more complex ways and carry many interesting storylines (and thank god they gave him his own show; he became a much better character on AtS).

Besides, Angel was never one of Whedon's favorite characters - he was more of a creation/favorite character of David Greenwalt. Whedon initially wanted to use Angel for one season (he was billed as a guest star in S1) and didn't have long term plans for him, but as the story developed, they expanded his role. It made sense to let Greenwalt run his own show with Angel as the leading character.

 

[saturn5]

You simply couldn't keep up the Buffy/Angel relationship, the Sam and Diane/Maddy and David, you had to have them split. Also David could clearly carry his own show, the character of Angel works well by himself which you couldn' have had for anyone else except maybe Faith?

 

[DevilEyes]

You simply couldn't keep up the Buffy/Angel relationship, the Sam and Diane/Maddy and David, you had to have them split. Also David could clearly carry his own show, the character of Angel works well by himself which you couldn' have had for anyone else except maybe Faith?

I've heard that there was supposed to be a Faith spin-off at one point, but Eliza was doing Tru Calling instead. I've also heard that Joss wanted to have Spike appear on that Faith spinoff instead of AtS (or after he guest starred on AtS for a while, it was the network who forced them to make a popular BtVS character a regular on AtS), which makes sense to me since they had a bit of setup with the two of them having some friendly/flirty moments in season 7.

 

[Admiral_Young]

^ There were rumors of a Faith spin-off. In fact when Eliza met Joss to talk about "Dollhouse" many fans thought they were talking about a Faith series. There was also talk of course of "Ripper" on the BBC but that never came about. I still think that had tremendous amount of potential as a series. As for why Angel? I think most of the previous posts have touched on it.

 

[Warp Coil]

Well, I think that the Buffy/Angel relationship had run its course by season 3. Their romance was doomed from the start. It couldn't last. There was no chance of the two staying together and being happy. Eventually, they'd have to recognize that their relationship just couldn't last and they would break up. So where would that leave Angel? He was very much a loner, and outsider. He wasn't friends with anyone else in Sunnydale (Giles didn't really trust him, Xander hated him). Joss could have killed him off or just written him out of the series, but I think that he was an immensely popular character (especially with the ladies). I guess Joss recognized that there was story potential for Angel beyond Sunnydale, and he must have felt comfortable that Boreanaz could carry a series on his own. Turns out, he was right!

 

[Canadave]

I don't think the series are exactly interchangeable. Angel is darker - and not just wrt the colour palette - more nuanced, and pitched at a more adult level. Which isn't to say it's better than Buffy, because it isn't.

To each their own on that point.

 

[indranee]

Thanks guys for weighing in on this.

DevilEyes, I don't really agree on the chemistry issue but that's subjective. I do think that SMG had really good chemistry with only one other male character on the show and that was James Marsters. It was just... a different sort of chemistry. One can actually write chemistry (and god only knows they try) but TV and the movies prove that character and actor chemistry is unpredictable and unquantifiable.

Anyway, I do agree that DB was able to carry his own show but was it critically and monetarily more successful than BtVS? I actually was kind of surprised to learn that apparently City of Angels and I Will Remember You were two of the highest Nielsen's rated episodes in Buffy/Angelverse.

Either way, I do happen to like Angel more than BtVS. I guess I'm still a bit confused about why a separate show about essentially the same topic/idea. Although, you guys are correct that it was more "adult"...

Btw, why is it called AtS? What do the 'tS" stand for? Oh, and Cultcross, thanks for the move.

 

[RoJoHen]

AtS = Angel the Series

I think?

Kinda like how Star Trek (TOS) isn't actually called "The Original Series."

 

[indranee]

Oh right. Gotcha.

 

[indranee]

One more thing. While re-watching the episodes, I noticed that in "Hero" in AtS -- Doyle's death scene seems to have been almost directly lifted (in essence and execution) from Spock's death scene in TWOK. I never realized this before during the time the show was actually on. And this includes his passing on of his "visions" to Cordelia... just like the "Remember" from Spock to McCoy. Anyone notice this bit?

 

[mimic]

Rojo is right, AtS = Angel the series. It's mostly just to distinguish it from episode 1x07 of Buffy.

 

[DevilEyes]

Anyway, I do agree that DB was able to carry his own show but was it critically and monetarily more successful than BtVS? I actually was kind of surprised to learn that apparently City of Angels and I Will Remember You were two of the highest Nielsen's rated episodes in Buffy/Angelverse.

I didn't know that. But I bet it was due to CoA being the pilot (and pilots tend to be highly rated) for a spinoff of an already popular show, showing what Angel got up to after leaving Buffy; while with IWRY it was probably because of SMG/Buffy guest starring and the premise of the episode.

I doubt that it was more successful, since AtS got cancelled and was already in danger of being cancelled after season 4, which is why they had to bring JM/Spike as a regular - it was network's demand. It was the condition, add a popular BtVS character as a regular (from what I've heard it was to be either Spike or Willow) to boost the ratings, or we'll cancel the show.

It's hard to say what the situation was with BtVS since it was on another network for its last 2 seasons. But it ended because SMG didn't want to play Buffy anymore.

Rojo is right, AtS = Angel the series. It's mostly just to distinguish it from episode 1x07 of Buffy.

I like to write BtVS and AtS instead of Buffy and Angel in order not to have to use italics or inverted commas all the time and to distinguish between the shows and the eponymous characters.

One more thing. While re-watching the episodes, I noticed that in "Hero" in AtS -- Doyle's death scene seems to have been almost directly lifted (in essence and execution) from Spock's death scene in TWOK. I never realized this before during the time the show was actually on. And this includes his passing on of his "visions" to Cordelia... just like the "Remember" from Spock to McCoy. Anyone notice this bit?

Well, except that Spock didn't kiss McCoy. Though I bet there are fanfics out there where he did...

 

[sonak]

I know the Angel/Buffy romance was supposed to be all "epic," but really, what kept them together besides the physical part? I mean, it's like what Jess asked Rory about Dean on GG "What do you talk about?"

she's a shallow seventeen-year-old girl from modern U.S.

He's a two hundred sixty-year-old vampire from Ireland(at the start of the show)

they had nothing in common, and it showed. Whenever they were supposed to be together as a normal couple, they had nothing to do. Was it "bad eggs" when they literally do nothing but kiss every time they're on screen together?

 

[indranee]

Yeah, not much in common except physical passion, a sense of destiny, and emotional resonance. I'd say that was quite enough. I liked the intensity and angst and doomed quality to it. I dunno. I like B/A. It's great to watch... especially when Angelus torments Buffy and then gets tormented as Angel.

It's all very, very watchable, at least, as far as I am concerned.

 

[indranee]

Anyway, I do agree that DB was able to carry his own show but was it critically and monetarily more successful than BtVS? I actually was kind of surprised to learn that apparently City of Angels and I Will Remember You were two of the highest Nielsen's rated episodes in Buffy/Angelverse.

I didn't know that. But I bet it was due to CoA being the pilot (and pilots tend to be highly rated) for a spinoff of an already popular show, showing what Angel got up to after leaving Buffy; while with IWRY it was probably because of SMG/Buffy guest starring and the premise of the episode.

I doubt that it was more successful, since AtS got cancelled and was already in danger of being cancelled after season 4, which is why they had to bring JM/Spike as a regular - it was network's demand. It was the condition, add a popular BtVS character as a regular (from what I've heard it was to be either Spike or Willow) to boost the ratings, or we'll cancel the show.

It's hard to say what the situation was with BtVS since it was on another network for its last 2 seasons. But it ended because SMG didn't want to play Buffy anymore.

Rojo is right, AtS = Angel the series. It's mostly just to distinguish it from episode 1x07 of Buffy.

I like to write BtVS and AtS instead of Buffy and Angel in order not to have to use italics or inverted commas all the time and to distinguish between the shows and the eponymous characters.

One more thing. While re-watching the episodes, I noticed that in "Hero" in AtS -- Doyle's death scene seems to have been almost directly lifted (in essence and execution) from Spock's death scene in TWOK. I never realized this before during the time the show was actually on. And this includes his passing on of his "visions" to Cordelia... just like the "Remember" from Spock to McCoy. Anyone notice this bit?

Well, except that Spock didn't kiss McCoy. Though I bet there are fanfics out there where he did...

I like Ats and BtVS too. Gonna use it from now on. As for the kiss... eh... it's mainly the contact etc. I wonder if Joss liked TWOK. Is he a Trek fan by any chance? Then again, TWOK is only one of the most popular sci fi films of the second half of the 20th century

 

[Dream]

they had nothing in common, and it showed. Whenever they were supposed to be together as a normal couple, they had nothing to do. Was it "bad eggs" when they literally do nothing but kiss every time they're on screen together?

And what the hell does Buffy and Spike have in common? She hates his guts, but doesn't have a problem sleeping with a killer. Obviously Buffy is an idiot when it comes to men.