Who Knows Palpatine is a Sith?

[Solid Snack]

Yeah, I did state that it was pretty obvious in ESB, but not in ANH, that Palpatine was a darksider, and it probably wasn't until ESB that they decided to have him be a darksider and have a part in Vader's downfall, as well as a bigger threat than Vader, apart from the puppet ruler from the novel.

However the Sith/Darth stuff wasn't really a big thing until the prequels, although previous Dark Horse comics did feature Dark Lords of the Sith, and a 1996 comic also had Emperor visiting the Sith home world of Korriban (Now canonically 'Moriband") but movie-wise he wasn't really a Sith until the prequels I think. Although Lucas's version of the Sith-now pretty much the 'canon' version-was different from how the comics envisioned them, meaning that there were a lot of retcons along the way until Disney just started from scratch.

I think the main hint that Palpatine and Sidious were the same person, apart from their similar voices and lower faces, as well as a fairly obvious number of plot points, is that the balcony that Palpatine talks to Maul on is visible outside Palpatine's TPM apartment when he later talks to Amidalia.

 

[Solid Snack]

Also in the EU and licensing, I think in a lot of sources dark siders were simply labeled as "Dark Jedi" (This sort of continued later on too, with characters such as Ventress being labeled though due to the Sith 'rules') instead of Sith. Of course now we have the "Knights of Ren", and who knows what dark side title Snoke has (Supreme Leader could just be a title like "Emperor").

 

[Set Harth]

I'm pretty sure that McDiarmid is just credited as Palpatine and no Sidious credit in sight in any of the prequels, not even RotS.

That's not to say that there aren't subtle hints in the movies themselves of course

I would call it less than subtle: when Mace and Yoda have their "who was defeated - the master or the apprentice?" discussion we immediately cut to a Palpatine close-up.

Also Sidious is clearly the Emperor, and McDiarmid who played the Emperor is playing Palpatine... it gets kind of obvious.

I remember back in the 1999 to 2004 days when there was speculation that Sidious was NOT the Palpatine of the Prequels and it was a big switcheroo, that he was a double or a clone or something.

I remember back in the 70s some people thought stormtroopers were robots.

 

[Ithekro]

That and at the end of AOTC, you have the Clone armies preparing for war and to Imperial March starts playing at full with a focus on Palpatine overlooking the army....it is sort of like a giant hammer isn't it? "Do you get it yet?" seems to be the implication of that scene.

Though I do wonder something. How does that scene and anything with the Imperial March foreshadowing play out if someone is watching the movies from TPM forward and never seen the OT?

 

[fireproof78]

It actually play out well because the implication is that this is the twilight of the Republic. The Clone Army marching as the sun sets creates a feeling of dread, even as Yoda comments that "the shroud of the Dark Side has fallen."

In my opinion, the ending of AOTC works very well, regardless of familiarity with the OT.

 

[Reverend]

That and at the end of AOTC, you have the Clone armies preparing for war and to Imperial March starts playing at full with a focus on Palpatine overlooking the army....it is sort of like a giant hammer isn't it? "Do you get it yet?" seems to be the implication of that scene.

Though I do wonder something. How does that scene and anything with the Imperial March foreshadowing play out if someone is watching the movies from TPM forward and never seen the OT?

Well exactly, it's meant to work on both levels. Older fans who know where this is going while the younger generation seeing these first (and presumably not old enough to have seen footage of the Nuremberg rallies) might not pick up on the ominous foreshadowing and just see all their clone heroes triumphantly marching off to war with the kind old Chancellor looking on.

It's difficult to get into that head space for us older fans, but I've heard accounts of people showing these movies to their kids for the first time and having them genuinely stunned when Sidious reveals himself and visibly upset at the start of ANH because the first thing they see are "clones" (yes I know they're not, but this is a child's perspective we're talking about) getting gunned down by the rebels.

 

[The Wormhole]

Also Sidious is clearly the Emperor, and McDiarmid who played the Emperor is playing Palpatine... it gets kind of obvious.

You have no idea how many times I was explaining that to people back in 1999 who really didn't get that Sidious and Paplatine were the same and were. I lost contact with all of them by the time ROTS came out.

It's difficult to get into that head space for us older fans, but I've heard accounts of people showing these movies to their kids for the first time and having them genuinely stunned when Sidious reveals himself and visibly upset at the start of ANH because the first thing they see are "clones" (yes I know they're not, but this is a child's perspective we're talking about) getting gunned down by the rebels.

Honestly, it sounds wrong to me to introduce someone to Star Wars prequel first. I'm not trying to be critical of the prequels, but the one time I tried watching the movies in order of Phantom Menace to Return of the Jedi, I found it just did not work at all. Even a co-worker of mine, when his kids began showing an interest in Star Wars he made sure they watched the OT first before the prequels.

 

[Reverend]

You have no idea how many times I was explaining that to people back in 1999 who really didn't get that Sidious and Paplatine were the same and were. I lost contact with all of them by the time ROTS came out.

Honestly, it sounds wrong to me to introduce someone to Star Wars prequel first. I'm not trying to be critical of the prequels, but the one time I tried watching the movies in order of Phantom Menace to Return of the Jedi, I found it just did not work at all. Even a co-worker of mine, when his kids began showing an interest in Star Wars he made sure they watched the OT first before the prequels.

Opinions vary of course and I've seen compelling arguments to both points of view. To me the most interesting is the idea of showing a person ANH & tESB first, then switching to the prequel trilogy before ending on RotJ. For one thing it gives a lot more weight to Vader's final scenes if you just came right off of RotS. As a nifty side effect it also shifts the revelation about Leia to that movie which plays much better coming off Yoda's "there is another..." in tESB to "She's carrying twins." in RotS than the very downplayed scene we got in RotJ.
A similar trick is played with a certain Sith Lord as they would first briefly see him as the Emperor in tESB and then again appearing as Sidious in only a handful of scenes in TPM & AotC, all the while hiding in plain sight as Palpatine.

There's also the simple fact that people who were kids when the prequels came out naturally saw them first and may not have been much aware of the older movies. I mean one would think the majority of them would not have had parents who were themselves fans and would have to discover such things for themselves.

 

[Solid Snack]

I think in the first two PT films's ending, Sidious is credited as ?

One thing that's a bit weird about the clones though, when they're first revealed the Trade Federation theme is used. I'm not sure, but it's either a bit of misdirection (Like the trailer and the title implying the Clones were 'the bad guys' which they technically weren't at this point), a sort of theme in general for the Clone Wars, or another sign of the film's messed-up soundtrack editing.

 

[The Wormhole]

^^Nothing new for Star Wars or movies in general. The music that plays in ANH as Luke watches the twin sunset is in fact Obi-Wan's theme. Also, although I've never seen the movies, I'm told what is generally considered the main theme for the Harry Potter franchise was originally in fact just the theme for the owl.

 

[Solid Snack]

I think the Obi-Wan theme is pretty much the theme for the light side of the Force itself, more or less. In a similar fashion, the Emperor's theme for ROTJ is pretty much used for the Dark side/Sith throughout the PT (It plays for instance during Anakin's confession in AOTC, along with hints of the Imperial march).

 

[Solid Snack]

Although I suppose the Yoda theme playing triumphantly in ESB when Luke attempts to rescue Leia might count a bit (Although I suppose it kind of counts as Luke's putting Yoda's teaching to use?). Also one of the more subtle uses of soundtrack in the films is TPM's celebration music, which kind of sounds like a hyper/happy version of the Emperor/Dark side theme....(Although I think Williams has denied this).

 

[USS Firefly]

When I introduce my wife to Star Wars, we started with the old trilogy, manly because they are better

 

[JD]

Also in the EU and licensing, I think in a lot of sources dark siders were simply labeled as "Dark Jedi" (This sort of continued later on too, with characters such as Ventress being labeled though due to the Sith 'rules') instead of Sith. Of course now we have the "Knights of Ren", and who knows what dark side title Snoke has (Supreme Leader could just be a title like "Emperor").

I've been assuming the Supreme Leader title for Snoke was from him being the leader of The First Order, not his being Kylo Ren's master.

 

[Reverend]

I've been assuming the Supreme Leader title for Snoke was from him being the leader of The First Order, not his being Kylo Ren's master.

I think he also refers to Kylo as leader of the Knights of Ren, so he's clearly not one of them himself. So yeah, Supreme Leader seems like a political title. "Emperor" wouldn't make sense anymore since they don't in any real sense have an empire.

 

[Ithekro]

Supreme Leader is one of those grandiose titles writers like to put on dictators. Be they fiction writers, or copy writers.

Also because just calling him Leader seems boring unless one used another language....such as pre-1930s German, to define him as such.

 

[Reverend]

^That would have been a tad on the nose, no?

 

[fireproof78]

I think he also refers to Kylo as leader of the Knights of Ren, so he's clearly not one of them himself. So yeah, Supreme Leader seems like a political title. "Emperor" wouldn't make sense anymore since they don't in any real sense have an empire.

Well, doesn't General Hux refer to him as "Supreme Leader as well? That would connote either a military or political title, at least to me.

 

[Reverend]

Well, doesn't General Hux refer to him as "Supreme Leader as well? That would connote either a military or political title, at least to me.

Well under a military dictatorship which the First Order appears to be, the distinction is something of a meaningless one, is it not?

 

[fireproof78]

Well under a military dictatorship which the First Order appears to be, the distinction is something of a meaningless one, is it not?

Some what. I think that it shows that Hux is not just a yes man but believes in Snoke's cause. It's meaningless as far the end result, but I think it informs the character far more.