Who Knows Palpatine is a Sith?

[Mr Light]

Specifically in the Rebels timeline.

Another argument I was having with my friend, stemming from why Ezra said in 3X2 that he wanted to destroy the Sith.

I say that all the Jedi survivors (Yoda, Obi, Ahsoka, Kanan, Ezra) and the Rebel leadership (Mon, Bail) all know that Palpatine is the Sith Lord. It just seems like the worst kept secret in the world. The Jedi knew a Sith Lord was behind the Clone Wars and had control of the Senate. Palpatine declares himself Emperor and wipes out the Jedi. He moves into the damn Jedi Temple (cf. Tarkin novel). Vader, "Dark Lord of the Sith", willingly follows him and doesn't try to overthrow him. It must painfully obvious to anyone with the slightest knowledge what he really is.

Now, I know the general populace doesn't know this. To them, the Jedi were barely seen myths you heard about on the Holonet. And then the Empire controlled the media. But I'm talking about our heroes. Bail and Mon who worked closely with the Jedi up to the end of the war.

Obviously Yoda and Obi-Wan know. And we've seen Yoda in remote-viewing contact with Ahsoka and Kanan and Ezra. So why WOULDN'T he tell them? If they didn't know already.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Wait? Palpatine is a Sith?

 

[The Wormhole]

The Disney novel Lords of the Sith (which is set several years prior to Rebels) says the only ones Palpatine has allowed to know he's a Sith are Vader and the Red Guards, though the Red Guards are sworn to secrecy. I'd go a step further and suggest Mas Amedda likely knows as well.

 

[Mr Light]

That's the bad guys though. I'm talking about the good guys. :-)

 

[The Wormhole]

Well, as you say, Yoda and Obi-Wan know. I doubt Kanan, Ezra or Ahsoka know. Yoda never felt it important to tell them Vader was Anakin, why would he feel it necessary to tell them about Palpatine? Also, what good would the information do them?

 

[JD]

Yeah, I doubt very many people would know about Palpatine. Obi-Wan, Yoda, and a few of his closest allies would probably know. But what about the other Sith/Force users working for him and Vader, like the Inquisitors? Would they even know Vader has a Master?

 

[Reverend]

Aside from the obvious (Vader, Maul, Dooku, Yoda, Kenobi, Bail & Mon etc). I think it'd have to be a very small circle.

Mas Amedda definitely knew. At which point he found out is up for debate of course (I'm guessing it was back when Valorum was still in power) but certainly by the time of RotS, just going by how he casually strolled out when Yoda walked in.
By extension Sly Moore probably knew too, given how she was around Palpatine at least as much as Mas. Other than those two, I think it's specifically said in one of the books that Tarkin also knew. There may be others, like say on the Ruling Council, but would be about it.

That said, assuming he didn't already know, I'd bet serious money that Thrawn would have figured it out about five seconds after stepping into a room with him.

I'm quite curious about the Royal Guards since the way I see it there's a few directions one could go with them. I never did get around to reading the old EU 'Crimson Empire' books myself, but I think the general idea was that they were a cadre of super-elite warriors recruited from the ranks of the Stormtroopers who's loyalty was due to their system of personal honour.

What I think might be a more interesting way to go, given what they're trusted with, is if they're something a bit more sinister. Like say cybernetically enhanced custom made clones, conditioned for absolute loyalty and obedience. Maybe even with some funky Sith magik artifact that somehow binds them to Palapatine's will.

Another possibility is that they're just elite Stormtroopers and they're really just for show, since we know he can look after himself. I mean, if he can handle half the Jedi council on his own, there's not much that they can really protect him from that's an actual threat. It could be that their real value is in saving him from having to make a spectacle of his abilities on the off chance someone takes a shot at him in public. Maybe he routinely kills them when he feels they've seen and heard too much?

But what about the other Sith/Force users working for him and Vader, like the Inquisitors? Would they even know Vader has a Master?

I'm guessing not. Inquisitors seem like they're meant to be assets to be used, not allies by any stretch so it'd be wise to keep what they're aware of limited to just what they need to know to fulfil their function. Palpatine wouldn't want any of them getting any ideas.

The Grand Inquisitor *might* have known, given his history. It's not made clear exactly how many Jedi are aware of the Rule of Two, but if he was aware of it then he should easily infer it from Vader's subservience to the Emperor. I mean would a Jedi believe that a Sith would ever serve anyone other than themselves or their master? Doubtful.

 

[Mr Light]

I would think anyone who knows the slightest thing about the Sith would realize that Vader, or the Inquisitors, would overthrow a mundane human Emperor in a flat second if he didn't have a defense against them.

 

[The Wormhole]

Aside from the obvious (Vader, Maul, Dooku, Yoda, Kenobi, Bail & Mon etc).

I know that Clone Wars, particularly in season 6 does indicate that Dooku knew Sidious and Paplatine were the same, but based on the movies I never really saw any indication of that. Indeed, in ROTS when Palpatine channels his Sidious voice to tell Anakin to kill Dooku, I always thought Dooku seemed surprised and that he only then discovered Palpatine was in fact his master. Or was Dooku instead surprised to discover he was in fact an expendable cog in the wheel?

 

[Mr Light]

The novelization, which is still canon, makes it clear that Dooku knew who Sidious was, and his surprise was in Sidious telling Anakin to execute him.

 

[Reverend]

I know that Clone Wars, particularly in season 6 does indicate that Dooku knew Sidious and Paplatine were the same, but based on the movies I never really saw any indication of that. Indeed, in ROTS when Palpatine channels his Sidious voice to tell Anakin to kill Dooku, I always thought Dooku seemed surprised and that he only then discovered Palpatine was in fact his master. Or was Dooku instead surprised to discover he was in fact an expendable cog in the wheel?

I always took it as the latter.
That aside, he straight up tells Obi Wan in AotC that the Senate is under the control of a Sith Lord and reiterates it again in TCW in the midst of what turns out to be a first run at what we saw culminate in the above mentioned scene. In which he "kidnaps" Palpatine and it's clear both of them are play acting.

 

[kitik]

Specifically in the Rebels timeline.

Lando knew.

Tough to say when the Lando comic took place. It may have been pre-ANH/Rogue One, which would place it during the Rebels timeframe.

 

[Reverend]

Lando knew.

Tough to say when the Lando comic took place. It may have been pre-ANH/Rogue One, which would place it during the Rebels timeframe.

I forget the specifics of that comic, but did he explicitly *know* Palpatine was himself a Sith, or just that he had a thing for collecting Sith artefacts? The latter, while still creepy wouldn't necessitate the former.

 

[Solid Snack]

One thing that's kind of important I think is that Palpatine was not originally intended to be a Sith, I think. That's partially why Tarkin and Motti believe Vader to be the only force-sensitive left, and don't trust him entirely, in the original film.

The original Alan Dean Foster novel (ghost written for Lucas) work, for instance, sort of has an outline of the fall of the Republic. It largely follows a rough approximation of what happens in the prequels, but Palpatine is actually portrayed as more of a reclusive puppet ruler, with people like Tarkin the real power behind the Empire. Although it's not 100% true to the film, it does feature a lot of earlier draft touches (such as the X-wings being blue), and I'm thinking the backstory is largely built on Lucas's story notes to Foster.

I think it was in ESB's development that Lucas and the screenwriters figured they'd make the Emperor a dark-sider himself, and Vader's master/guy who turned him in the first place. Even so, he wasn't really canonically a Sith lord/Darth until TPM (even the EU largely shied away from this) gave him the "Darth Sidious" identity.

 

[Reverend]

Tarkin and Motti believe Vader to be the only force-sensitive left

That's not *quite* accurate. All Motti says is "your sad devotion to that ancient religion..." While Tarkin says "The Jedi are extinct. Their fire has gone out of the universe. You my friend are all that's left of their religion."

For Motti's part, he's not making any assertions that Vader is the last of anything, just that he practices what he sees as an ancient religion. Whether he knows (or cares) enough to distinguish a Jedi from a Sith is an open question. I'm guessing not.

From that all we get is that Tarkin knows Vader is a former Jedi. This is entirely consistent with Obi Wan's line about Darth Vader being a Jedi pupil of his that murdered Anakin and helped the Empire hunt the rest of them down. That exchange also seems to imply that Tarkin knew or at least knew of Kenobi, which also supports the idea he knew Vader when he was a Jedi.

So in this case there's very little if any inconsistency between the initial intent of the scene and how we might interpret it now in light of both the "Anakin=Vader" and the "Emperor=Sith" retcons.

 

[The Wormhole]

Even so, he wasn't really canonically a Sith lord/Darth until TPM (even the EU largely shied away from this) gave him the "Darth Sidious" identity.

IIRC, the Thrawn trilogy does make it clear that Plapatine was if not a Sith than certainly a Dark Sider. I seem to remember one part where Leia is in orbit above Endor and can feel negative Force vibes when her ship passes by the spot the Death Star was positioned, which the book describes as "the spot the Emperor died."

 

[Set Harth]

IIRC, the Thrawn trilogy does make it clear that Plapatine was if not a Sith than certainly a Dark Sider.

How someone doesn't get that from ROTJ alone is beyond me...

 

[Reverend]

I think I'd dispute the notion that Palpatine wasn't a Sith until TPM. As soon as he showed up in Empire, Vader was kneeling and calling him master. Then there's lines like "young Skywalker will be one of us" which seem to imply more than simply turning him to the dark side.

Now if we're just talking about his "Darth" name then sure, that came from TPM as originally "Darth" was simply Vader's first name, even back when he was Obi Wan's young Jedi pupil.

 

[Mr Light]

I remember back in the 1999 to 2004 days when there was speculation that Sidious was NOT the Palpatine of the Prequels and it was a big switcheroo, that he was a double or a clone or something.

 

[Reverend]

I remember back in the 1999 to 2004 days when there was speculation that Sidious was NOT the Palpatine of the Prequels and it was a big switcheroo, that he was a double or a clone or something.

I remember hearing that. Not surprising given how coy Lucas and McDiarmid were about Sidious at the time and knowing that a certain type of fan will always try to make more of a mystery than is intended (See also: Rey's heritage and almost every Snoke theory ever.)

The real reason of course is that they still wanted the reveal in RotS to be a surprise to the younger audience who may not have seen the original movies and were experiencing Star Wars for the first time though the prequel movies. Indeed, I'm pretty sure that McDiarmid is just credited as Palpatine and no Sidious credit in sight in any of the prequels, not even RotS.

That's not to say that there aren't subtle hints in the movies themselves of course, but from what I've gathered in the years since, those flew right over the heads of many fans who were kids at the time and were floored when Palpatine revealed himself.

I think it says a lot about Lucas that regardless of the end result, his priority was in telling a story to the kids and not just satisfying the grumpy grown up fans need to have blanks filled in.