Which species and neutral zone did Kirk face in his Kobayashi Maru
- Thread starter Yistaan
- Start date
The appearance wouldn’t matter, but the capabilities would. Simulations have to be believable in order to provide a good teaching environment. Using a ship design that Kirk would never face doesn’t accomplish that.
Doesn't matter who the opponent is, and it doesn't necessarily have to take place in a neutral zone. It just has to be a scenario that the candidate is going to fail no matter what they do- it's a test of character.
Even tests of character have be grounded in plausible scenarios. It doesn’t make sense to test a cadet’s character by pitting him/her against an opponent he may never face. While Kirk ultimately had his share of run-ins with the Romulans, neither he nor Starfleet had any of knowing that would be the case in the 2250s.
You've misunderstood, I'm afraid. What follows is what's actually said in DSC. Note all the carefully selected qualifiers. It's not contradictory either to itself or to what Spock says in TUC.
"The Vulcan Hello" (DSC):
[within flashback to Michael's childhood education on Vulcan]
COMPUTER: Klingon homeworld Qo'noS?
BURNHAM: Unwelcoming to the Federation.
COMPUTER: Correct. Klingon political order?
BURNHAM: 24 great houses.
COMPUTER: Correct. Location of the most recent Klingon terror raid?
BURNHAM: ...
COMPUTER: Unacceptable duration between query and correct response. Number of survivors at the Human-Vulcan science outpost at Doctari Alpha?
[...]
GEORGIOU: Michael, almost no one has seen a Klingon in a hundred years.
BURNHAM: I have...
"Battle At The Binary Stars" (DSC):BURNHAM: Unwelcoming to the Federation.
COMPUTER: Correct. Klingon political order?
BURNHAM: 24 great houses.
COMPUTER: Correct. Location of the most recent Klingon terror raid?
BURNHAM: ...
COMPUTER: Unacceptable duration between query and correct response. Number of survivors at the Human-Vulcan science outpost at Doctari Alpha?
[...]
GEORGIOU: Michael, almost no one has seen a Klingon in a hundred years.
BURNHAM: I have...
ANDERSON: Next time, you might try not disturbing the property of a warrior race we've hardly spoken to for a hundred years. Our only choice now is to navigate this situation with as much finesse as possible.
BURNHAM: Admiral, if I may, the ideal outcome for any Klingon interaction is battle. They're relentlessly hostile, Sir. It's in their nature.
ANDERSON: The Federation and the Klingon Empire have always been on the cold side of war. We've had only fleeting run-ins with them for a century, and now you presume to know their motivation, because it is in their nature?
(Note that Anderson winds up dead for his trouble in trying to give them the benefit of the doubt.)
If "almost no one has seen a Klingon for a hundred years" then that means at least a few people have, and possibly quite a few more who didn't live to tell the tale, too, like Burnham's parents for example. If the Feds have "hardly spoken to" them in that time, that means they have spoken to them at least a bit. Their "run-ins" may have been "fleeting" but there were obviously several of them, including a series of "terror raids" (of which Doctari Alpha was only the "most recent" as of the flashback segment) and Donatu V (which took place 23 years before "The Trouble With Tribbles" [TOS], and which T'Kuvma mentions as their "last battle" with the Feds prior to the present day segments of "...Binary Stars" [DSC]). Between these sporadic encounters, the Klingons remained "relentlessly hostile" and "unwelcoming to the Federation."
Imagine you've only seen and/or spoken to someone who lives down the street from you a couple of times in all the years you've been neighbors, but every time you have interacted with them, they've told you they hate your guts and tried to pick a fight with you. Spock says "almost seventy years of unremitting hostility," meaning an attitude or feeling of ill will, dislike, distrust. He does not say "unremitting hostilities," in the sense of frequent or constant violent encounters on a continual basis. And we've known since the very first Klingon episode ever that the latter did not exist throughout the span in question...
"Errand Of Mercy" (TOS):
AYELBORNE: Unless both sides agree to an immediate cessation of hostilities, all your armed forces, wherever they may be, will be immediately immobilized.
Hostilities are the act of engaging in armed conflict; hostility is an attitude of unfriendliness that requires no action or contact at all.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/hostility
-MMoM
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That's because DSC is not the TOS reality and their Klingons who look like angry prunes are more aggressive and less cunning than the ones in the TOS universe!
JB
JB
But Kirk claims to the students that "Klingons don't take prisoners".
Which is of course bollocks, as Kirk himself has been prisoner to Klingons many times. And thus probably an attempt at levity, fitting of the occasion. But it does appear those were supposed to be Klingons in Klingon ships.
I'm on the side that doesn't sweat realism in the no-win test. Facing the unexpected is a big part of the business here. But the scenario might still be pseudo-realistic even if not based on true events: perhaps it is possible for Klingons to mount ambushes within the RNZ, for purposes of win-win political unrest. Heck, perhaps the very thing has already happened a couple of times!
Plenty of pseudo-realistic ways to construe a Kobayashi Maru test for young Kirks of all timelines. That is, plenty of opponents to choose from - but also plenty of borders, which don't need to be accompanied by a Neutral Zone but may be of the simpler line-that-cannot-be-crossed type to the very same practical effect. And of course the starship could be in other types of undefeatable distress, such as caught in a spatial anomaly that will almost certainly kill Kirk's crew.
Timo Saloniemi
Which is of course bollocks, as Kirk himself has been prisoner to Klingons many times. And thus probably an attempt at levity, fitting of the occasion. But it does appear those were supposed to be Klingons in Klingon ships.
I'm on the side that doesn't sweat realism in the no-win test. Facing the unexpected is a big part of the business here. But the scenario might still be pseudo-realistic even if not based on true events: perhaps it is possible for Klingons to mount ambushes within the RNZ, for purposes of win-win political unrest. Heck, perhaps the very thing has already happened a couple of times!
Plenty of pseudo-realistic ways to construe a Kobayashi Maru test for young Kirks of all timelines. That is, plenty of opponents to choose from - but also plenty of borders, which don't need to be accompanied by a Neutral Zone but may be of the simpler line-that-cannot-be-crossed type to the very same practical effect. And of course the starship could be in other types of undefeatable distress, such as caught in a spatial anomaly that will almost certainly kill Kirk's crew.
Timo Saloniemi
We never knew there was a Klingon Neutral Zone until The Undiscovered country! Maybe Klingons only take important prisoners like Starship Captains?
JB
JB
The Wrath Of Khan, no? Although The Undiscovered Country was indeed supposed to be its title originally...
-MMoM
Maybe it was the greatest Federation enemy of the early 2250s: The Sheliak.
Nope.
Lets not let facts get in the way of an anti-DISCO rant.You've misunderstood, I'm afraid. What follows is what's actually said in DSC. Note all the carefully selected qualifiers. It's not contradictory either to itself or to what Spock says in TUC.
"The Vulcan Hello" (DSC):
[within flashback to Michael's childhood education on Vulcan]
COMPUTER: Klingon homeworld Qo'noS?"Battle At The Binary Stars" (DSC):
BURNHAM: Unwelcoming to the Federation.
COMPUTER: Correct. Klingon political order?
BURNHAM: 24 great houses.
COMPUTER: Correct. Location of the most recent Klingon terror raid?
BURNHAM: ...
COMPUTER: Unacceptable duration between query and correct response. Number of survivors at the Human-Vulcan science outpost at Doctari Alpha?
[...]
GEORGIOU: Michael, almost no one has seen a Klingon in a hundred years.
BURNHAM: I have...
ANDERSON: Next time, you might try not disturbing the property of a warrior race we've hardly spoken to for a hundred years. Our only choice now is to navigate this situation with as much finesse as possible.
BURNHAM: Admiral, if I may, the ideal outcome for any Klingon interaction is battle. They're relentlessly hostile, Sir. It's in their nature.
ANDERSON: The Federation and the Klingon Empire have always been on the cold side of war. We've had only fleeting run-ins with them for a century, and now you presume to know their motivation, because it is in their nature?
(Note that Anderson winds up dead for his trouble in trying to give them the benefit of the doubt.)
If "almost no one has seen a Klingon for a hundred years" then that means at least a few people have, and possibly quite a few more who didn't live to tell the tale, too, like Burnham's parents for example. If the Feds have "hardly spoken to" them in that time, that means they have spoken to them at least a bit. Their "run-ins" may have been "fleeting" but there were obviously several of them, including a series of "terror raids" (of which Doctari Alpha was only the "most recent" as of the flashback segment) and Donatu V (which took place 23 years before "The Trouble With Tribbles" [TOS], and which T'Kuvma mentions as their "last battle" with the Feds prior to the present day segments of "...Binary Stars" [DSC]). Between these sporadic encounters, the Klingons remained "relentlessly hostile" and "unwelcoming to the Federation."
Imagine you've only seen and/or spoken to someone who lives down the street from you a couple of times in all the years you've been neighbors, but every time you have interacted with them, they've told you they hate your guts and tried to pick a fight with you. Spock says "almost seventy years of unremitting hostility," meaning an attitude or feeling of ill will, dislike, distrust. He does not say "unremitting hostilities," in the sense of frequent or constant violent encounters on a continual basis. And we've known since the very first Klingon episode ever that the latter did not exist throughout the span in question...
"Errand Of Mercy" (TOS):
AYELBORNE: Unless both sides agree to an immediate cessation of hostilities, all your armed forces, wherever they may be, will be immediately immobilized.Hostilities are the act of engaging in armed conflict; hostility is an attitude of unfriendliness that requires no action or contact at all.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/hostility
-MMoM
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The Wrath Of Khan, no? Although The Undiscovered Country was indeed supposed to be its title originally...
-MMoM
The Neutral Zone scenario presented in Wrath could have been the Romulans as they had adapted to the use of Klingon warships in The Enterprise Incident as you know! I remember that scene and the reference to the Neutral Zone at the time (1982) and thought hey, these guys have got it wrong!!! A Klingon Neutral Zone? No way!!! The Romulans had the NZ not the Klingons! So you just assume it must be the Romulans because of accepted history!
JB
Lets not let facts get in the way of an anti-DISCO rant.
An anti-DISCO rant! Shame it wasn't made in the 70s then that title would be more apt! In fact why not refer to it in the future as Disco-Trek? Because it looks like it was filmed under the flashing lights of one of those establishments!
JB
It could have been, yes, had that been what was written instead—and it might have added some interesting additional complexities to the mix, considering Saavik was supposed to be half-Romulan—but it was stated outright to be the Klingons.
-MMoM
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The party line is the show is dark and gloomy. So flashing lights do not track.An anti-DISCO rant! Shame it wasn't made in the 70s then that title would be more apt! In fact why not refer to it in the future as Disco-Trek? Because it looks like it was filmed under the flashing lights of one of those establishments!
JB
I can't say that I see it as dark and gloomy but more flashy and bright! The costumes look like something from a dance troupe rather than an outer space investigation/military spaceship crew! 
JB
JB
So...it's Star Trek? Glad we cleared that up.I can't say that I see it as dark and gloomy but more flashy and bright! The costumes look like something from a dance troupe rather than an outer space investigation/military spaceship crew!
JB
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